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Depending on your epistemology, here's the "no" side of it. If you form beliefs based on what you can determine is true based on evidence, then you might for example come to believe something you would rather weren't true. But it is nonetheless true. You might believe something that someone else happens to find challenging or offensive. But unless you want to lie about it ... you believe what you believe.
So the "yes" part is this: I can in theory indirectly decide what to believe by simply deciding that, say, the Bible as you interpret it is true. If your interpretation is, say, that of a young earth creationist, then I would also have to decide that a very significant body of scientific endeavor is wrong. Depending on my personality, maybe I could just put that on like a garment, IDK. Personally I can't actually do that. I used to wear that particular jacket but had to take it off because it simply didn't prove out in lived experience.
So on balance, I don't choose my beliefs; reality simply delivers information to me and I either deny or accept it. I have gotten on much better by accepting it.
This is why it's a problem in my view the way some Christians push a "believe or burn" false dichotomy is if their god is some sort of doofus who would not know that people presented with such a choice will not really be believing so much as avoiding perdition. I can't "just believe". It has to have a sufficient basis. Holy writ is not any sort of basis. It is just the truth claim, not the evidence.
This seems convoluted to me.
You choose what you want to believe - regardless of whether or not it's true.
You choose what you want to believe - regardless of whether or not it's true.
I’m not entirely sure that is what happens regarding belief in God though, it certainly wasn’t for me as I was brought up in the Christian/church environment and I didn’t choose to believe. I was indoctrinated and then had a personal experience which surpassed that indoctrination but at that stage I did not have maturity or practical experience to put it into context for myself, that only came much later
Prior to your own experience did you choose not to believe, and after your experience did you choose to believe?
Or was it more that because of the experience you had, you sought information to explain it, to make sense to you?
I think this is what some people have been trying to explain in their own way from their perspective
Not sure what the problem is.
Meme-ish …..…really ??
I stated “you’ll find out for yourself” I didn’t say you’ll experience Jesus or experience God or be “saved.”
MQ had no experience or connection with Jesus— so she “found out for herself” that Jesus was not her path or guide.
No reason to insult others or get triggered or feel lacking— we are all here to learn from each other!
I studied Buddhism for years hoping to get “enlightened” or at least experience oneness or a little nirvana. NOPE
I felt no spiritual connection to Buddha or even some of his teachings, but I still deeply respect them, and I don’t insult those that have had a deep spiritual experience and path with Buddhism that’s different than mine.
My husband is an atheist — he’s a good man and that is his path, and the God I experience and know is not sending him to eternal hell and damnation…..lol
So let it go folks — a relationship with Jesus is clearly not your path.
So RELAX and just let it go and find your own way………..❤️
Fair enough, but there is a very fine line between what some might consider an insult while others feel they are simply pointing out what can "rub people the wrong way." Going both ways it would seem...
The issue isn't so much whatever someone might find out for themselves is the right path for them. Not for me anyway. The issue I think the meme-ish comment was more about, and what I also tried to explain, is this notion that Jesus somehow makes contact with some people in some way and not with others. Then those who claim to have had such contact always make it sound like it's something they are doing that allows for the contact that others are not doing. "Surrendering" for example. "Being open" is another example.
Again, how is that supposed to make someone like me (an atheist) feel about experiencing no such thing? With explanations by others that always suggests I am simply not doing something necessary. Or that I am doing something wrong. I don't really know what surrender means (although I have my thoughts about that too). I certainly don't feel I haven't been open to the possibility.
So you see it's more a matter of who is doing what in order to have such an experience rather than any issue about choosing our own path. I don't really know if I would put it that way either. I have no choice but to follow a path that reality dictates for me. At least when it comes to believing in the things I believe in (and as others have pointed out in this thread as well).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn
There should be many different responses. Could be because you fear NOT to belief in him.
Could be cause he made a lot of sense or no one has impacted the world more...
Ideas about him would vary -he is the Son of God, He was sent here on a mission, he is not the son of God, just a good teacher...and so on.
What is your general take on him.
The point, then, in this thread is, also -How come? Why? What makes you think this about Jesus.
It would be great to include if you have had a direct exp of Jesus, himself.
Thanks
In summary, He was the greatest humanitarian that ever lived and politics hung Him. His words as He hung on the cross, 'forgive them father for they know not what they do', resonates.
Understand - nobody controls what God does and who He chooses to speak to.
You do control what you believe. You have a choice to believe in Jesus Christ or not - His death for sins, and His resurrection to life eternal. You have a choice in whether or not to believe the content in the Bible - which is one way God has chosen to reveal Himself. I'm not blaming you - just pointing out what's true.
I don't believe that we are trying to make others feel "less than" with the meme-ish statements. Just curious - what do you suggest?
I suppose if true that nobody controls God, then suggesting ways in which to experience Him and/or for Him to have an experience with you are somewhat inappropriate. Right? Suspect. Rightfully subject to a bit of scrutiny in any case. About all those sorts of claims, that's all this is. A bit of scrutiny is all...
I don't have a "choice" to believe in Jesus any more than I have a choice to believe in anything else for which I know of no good justification to believe. If such a thing IS a choice, then I just don't know how to CHOOSE to believe something that is about making a choice as opposed to evaluating the justification to believe something. I can no more CHOOSE to believe that Jesus exists as you believe than I can CHOOSE to believe the sun revolves around the earth. Or I can CHOOSE to believe I can make contact with a lost loved one. No matter how much I surrender myself to the possibility, how open I am to see them again, and/or want to see them again.
So again the question remains, how can some people CHOOSE to believe in Jesus like you do while for people like me it's not really a choice at all? Is it you doing what is necessary or God? Or both? Consider your beliefs and explanations a little more deeply, and you can see how it all seems to be something having more to do with psychology than reality. Or at least you should be able to see what the issue(s) truly are along those lines.
What we can choose is the criteria necessary to believe in what we do, and what to do about criteria that involves other than the universal truths that apply to all of us. The one and only reality that exists for all of us.
Meme, not meme. Big buildings often have multiple entrances. For every grand entrance is a service only door somewhere in your back. Look for the one not locked to you and you will find the entrance for you.
So here again it's about a door "not locked" for me? It's me not finding the right door? Then again, I'm not likely to find this building you are imagining either, but please...
Doors and locks are real. No problem there, and I certainly know the difference between one that is open to me and one that is not. That any are open or locked due to our CHOOSING, or finding, works in the fantasy realm perhaps, but the only doors I have found to be in my control, open or locked, are those entirely in my control. Doors I can easily open or lock with ease, and with no need to get mental about it whatsoever. Other doors controlled by others that are open or locked can also be similarly explained without imagination. Store owner wants customers in their store, they open their doors. If not, the doors are locked.
I've yet to encounter a door that is open or closed by a god, and I'm hard pressed to imagine ANYONE who upon finding a locked door, would pray to have it be opened. Most of us rely on keys. No more and no less, unless of course we might also believe in magic wands...
I’m not entirely sure that is what happens regarding belief in God though, it certainly wasn’t for me as I was brought up in the Christian/church environment and I didn’t choose to believe. I was indoctrinated and then had a personal experience which surpassed that indoctrination but at that stage I did not have maturity or practical experience to put it into context for myself, that only came much later
Prior to your own experience did you choose not to believe, and after your experience did you choose to believe?
Or was it more that because of the experience you had, you sought information to explain it, to make sense to you?
I think this is what some people have been trying to explain in their own way from their perspective
I was also raised to believe in God, "in the Christian/church environment," and I can honestly say I DID believe. With all my heart, and as a result of that belief, I also experienced what I thought was God. In more than a few ways, but it wasn't any kind of choice for me then. It just was, and not to be questioned.
Over time, however, I got to thinking about why I believed what I did, and why I was feeling what I was feeling. Until over time, alternative explanations ultimately proved more plausible, but I also checked and double-checked to see if maybe there could be some inexplicable experience with God still possible. Despite my questions and further consideration of all there was to consider. I had to be honest, at least with myself, that there was nothing there anymore. Not like I truly believed like I first did at a young age.
Fortunately, coming to a different realization was in no way difficult, painful or troubling for me. Quite the opposite actually, with no hard feelings about my upbringing or the preaching by the church. Just didn't work for me anymore for reasons I simply could not ignore or deny. Despite many a sincere effort on my part and on the part of others to see my way back to becoming a believer.
In summary, He was the greatest humanitarian that ever lived and politics hung Him. His words as He hung on the cross, 'forgive them father for they know not what they do', resonates.
Perhaps, but your summary is popular in some parts of the world while in other parts of the world not so much...
I guess that fact doesn't matter to people like you, but it always gives me pause, because if you look at a map of the world religions and which people, martyrs or gods are revered as such in other parts of the world, the truth of these matters has more to do with where we are born and where we live over most of the rest. Let alone the truth.
If born in Indonesia, for example, it's more about Muhammad. In India it's more about Hindu deities. So on and so on...
I’m not entirely sure that is what happens regarding belief in God though, it certainly wasn’t for me as I was brought up in the Christian/church environment and I didn’t choose to believe. I was indoctrinated and then had a personal experience which surpassed that indoctrination but at that stage I did not have maturity or practical experience to put it into context for myself, that only came much later
Prior to your own experience did you choose not to believe, and after your experience did you choose to believe?
Or was it more that because of the experience you had, you sought information to explain it, to make sense to you?
I think this is what some people have been trying to explain in their own way from their perspective
I make it a point not to indoctrinate anybody. Salvation is from the Lord.
Prior to my salvation - I just lived life. I had been to church off and on as a kid, but didn't think anything of it. It was a moral and peaceful atmosphere, and God was worshipped - but it nothing personal for me like it is now.
All I can tell you is God intervened in my inner spirit at a particular church service. I knew I was different. It was explained to me what was going on. From that point forward, God is a part of me. He is my Father in heaven for eternity.
I think I was referring to faith and proof earlier in this thread. Faith is in the content of the Bible, and in the gospel message. Proof is in my life experiences - with how God has worked to grow me up towards Christ, and how he has worked through various tough situations. He is not a genie above to give us whatever we want. This is His show. It's not always easy to trust in God when going through tough situations, but when it's over and I look back, I give Him thanks for getting me through situations.
I suppose if true that nobody controls God, then suggesting ways in which to experience Him and/or for Him to have an experience with you are somewhat inappropriate. Right? Suspect. Rightfully subject to a bit of scrutiny in any case. About all those sorts of claims, that's all this is. A bit of scrutiny is all...
I don't have a "choice" to believe in Jesus any more than I have a choice to believe in anything else for which I know of no good justification to believe. If such a thing IS a choice, then I just don't know how to CHOOSE to believe something that is about making a choice as opposed to evaluating the justification to believe something. I can no more CHOOSE to believe that Jesus exists as you believe than I can CHOOSE to believe the sun revolves around the earth. Or I can CHOOSE to believe I can make contact with a lost loved one. No matter how much I surrender myself to the possibility, how open I am to see them again, and/or want to see them again.
So again the question remains, how can some people CHOOSE to believe in Jesus like you do while for people like me it's not really a choice at all? Is it you doing what is necessary or God? Or both? Consider your beliefs and explanations a little more deeply, and you can see how it all seems to be something having more to do with psychology than reality. Or at least you should be able to see what the issue(s) truly are along those lines.
What we can choose is the criteria necessary to believe in what we do, and what to do about criteria that involves other than the universal truths that apply to all of us. The one and only reality that exists for all of us.
I can understand your point in the 1st paragraph. From my vantage point, a person needs to have a relationship w/ God before he/she can experience Him.
I still maintain belief is a choice. You choose what "data" to accept and reject, and base you beliefs on that. Flat earthers have a different belief about the travel of the sun. It doesn't matter to them if it's true or not. Now if they subject themselves to round earth data, or maybe fly around the world - this new data may cause a change in what they believe.
I think the above example is good to understand why I choose to believe God and you don't. I have received within myself different information than you have - and I believe it to be true. I am not saying I am better or worse than you - I just have different information which I believe is from God Himself.
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