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Whether any particular Pope holds to the unchanging Catholic Faith is not necessarily for me to say. They can speak for themselves, and they will be judged on whether they were good stewards of the Faith or not.
The Catholic Faith is not dependent upon the beliefs and teachings of any particular Pope. The Faith is much bigger than that. We are not a cult of the Pope, as though he were some kind of oracle.
When they teach on faith and morals they're supposed to be infallible, right? So when a Pope says the RCC can bless same sex relationships, how is that not definitive?
Or when the next Pope is elected by hand-picked Francis Cardinals, and he outright validates same sex marriage, then what?
When they teach on faith and morals they're supposed to be infallible, right?
The condition is that he must be speaking Ex Cathedra, i.e. in an official and authoritative capacity, though this concept is still not well-defined.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
So when a Pope says the RCC can bless same sex relationships, how is that not definitive?
What did the Pope say? I'm not sure what you're referring to.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Or when the next Pope is elected by hand-picked Francis Cardinals, and he outright validates same sex marriage, then what?
Then what? You want me to speculate on a hypothetical? Like what if the next Pope tries to change one of the Church's sacraments? That would obviously be invalid.
Then what? You want me to speculate on a hypothetical? Like what if the next Pope tries to change one of the Church's sacraments? That would obviously be invalid.
I'm saying that what you consider unthinkable now will likely be done in the next 20 years. So you claim that it's unchanging, but that isn't true.
So the Pope made a *suggestion* that a thing you perceive as objectionable *may be possible* while clearly and definitively re-affirming the Catholic understanding of marriage? I don't think this is the controversy you think it is.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
I'm saying that what you consider unthinkable now will likely be done in the next 20 years. So you claim that it's unchanging, but that isn't true.
There are many reasons the Catholic church seems to be dying. In my mind there are 2 main reasons why the Catholic church is losing numbers:
#2: Vatican II. They tried to make it more palatable to the masses to keep numbers up and it's not working. It worked at first because of sheeple, but it's not working now.
Yeah, Vatican II was a failure.
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It’s the beginning of the 1970s: times of unrest in the world and in the Church. It’s the period immediately after the Second Vatican Council. Pope Paul VI writes a letter that will remain unpublished until 2018, when its content is revealed in the book The Barque of Paul (“La barca di Paolo“), by Fr. Leonardo Sapienza, regent of the Pontifical Household.
It’s June 29, 1972. Paul VI has a clearer and clearer impression that there is something deep and negative that is increasingly afflicting the Church. The path towards secularization and the lack of internal unity are becoming two great problems for the Church throughout the world.
The pope, concerned, writes:
“… We would say that, through some mysterious crack—no, it’s not mysterious; through some crack, the smoke of Satan has entered the Church of God. There is doubt, uncertainty, problems, unrest, dissatisfaction, confrontation.
“The Church is no longer trusted. We trust the first pagan prophet we see who speaks to us in some newspaper, and we run behind him and ask him if he has the formula for true life. I repeat, doubt has entered our conscience. And it entered through the windows that should have been open to the light: science.”
Pope Francis was elected when there was a living pope ---- so not sure if that was even legal. Even if I'm not for traditional Catholics, Pope Francis persecution of them is cruel
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
I'm saying that what you consider unthinkable now will likely be done in the next 20 years. So you claim that it's unchanging, but that isn't true.
Pope Francis appointment of bishops will make sure that things that were unthinkable will be done. Think of it this way, Pope Francis has not disciplined the German Bishops blessing same-sex marriages, but fired the Texas Bishop Strickland for his traditional Catholic faith.
Perhaps, Francis is part of God's plan to reunite the Seat of Rome with the original Orthodox Christian faith. So the Catholic Church isn't dying but returning to its Orthodox roots.
As I already said, the concept is not well-defined.
So the Pope made a *suggestion* that a thing you perceive as objectionable *may be possible* while clearly and definitively re-affirming the Catholic understanding of marriage? I don't think this is the controversy you think it is.
I guess we'll find out ÂŻ\_(ă„)_/ÂŻ
I think it's naive to suggest that the church is unchanging when you can see clearly that doctrine DOES change.
For instance, you cannot tell me that the apostles taught the various Marian doctrines, nor can you show me from Scripture the Mass being practiced. You can't show me from Scripture the apostles teaching the papal primacy. All that and more has developed over time, and the church continues to develop new doctrines that are contrary to what the apostles taught.
I think it's naive to suggest that the church is unchanging when you can see clearly that doctrine DOES change.
For instance, you cannot tell me that the apostles taught the various Marian doctrines,
The apostles taught the various Marian doctrines.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
nor can you show me from Scripture the Mass being practiced.
Luke 22, Acts 20, Revelation 5
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
You can't show me from Scripture the apostles teaching the papal primacy.
Matthew 16:19 "I will give you [Peter] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
John 21: 15-17 "When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, 'Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?' He said to him, 'Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.' He said to him, 'Feed my lambs.' He said to him a second time, 'Simon, son of John, do you love me?' He said to him, 'Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.' He said to him, 'Tend my sheep.' He said to him the third time, 'Simon, son of John, do you love me?' Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, 'Do you love me?' and he said to him, 'Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.' Jesus said to him, 'Feed my sheep.'"
Luke 22:31-32 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”
See this post which lists a whole bunch of verses.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
All that and more has developed over time, and the church continues to develop new doctrines that are contrary to what the apostles taught.
Luke 22
You mean the last supper? Weird that he made no mention of the Mass. No priests. No mention of them becoming priests.
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Acts 20
Again, no mention of the Mass. No priests. No presentation of the sacrifice.
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Revelation 5
I've actually heard a Catholic apologist teach that Revelation shows the Mass from the perspective in Heaven. I don't buy it. Revelation 5 shows Jesus being worshiped. But he is not being presented on an altar and he is not being consumed and his flesh eaten. There is no priest presenting him.
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Matthew 16:19 "I will give you [Peter] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
John 21: 15-17 "When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, 'Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?' He said to him, 'Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.' He said to him, 'Feed my lambs.' He said to him a second time, 'Simon, son of John, do you love me?' He said to him, 'Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.' He said to him, 'Tend my sheep.' He said to him the third time, 'Simon, son of John, do you love me?' Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, 'Do you love me?' and he said to him, 'Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.' Jesus said to him, 'Feed my sheep.'"
Luke 22:31-32 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”
At best, this shows Peter as a sort of head disciple. It does not establish an office to be handed down to a successor.
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Nope!
Yes. You know it and everyone else knows it. So much of what you take for granted today simply was not taught in Scripture, and we are seeing the church change today with the liberation theologian Francis and those Cardinals he appoints.
Luke 22
You mean the last supper? Weird that he made no mention of the Mass. No priests. No mention of them becoming priests.
Again, no mention of the Mass. No priests. No presentation of the sacrifice.
I've actually heard a Catholic apologist teach that Revelation shows the Mass from the perspective in Heaven. I don't buy it. Revelation 5 shows Jesus being worshiped. But he is not being presented on an altar and he is not being consumed and his flesh eaten. There is no priest presenting him.
At best, this shows Peter as a sort of head disciple. It does not establish an office to be handed down to a successor.
Yes. You know it and everyone else knows it. So much of what you take for granted today simply was not taught in Scripture, and we are seeing the church change today with the liberation theologian Francis and those Cardinals he appoints.
Of course not because they were all Jewish and it was a Jewish Passover dinner.
You can't freeze ANYTHING in time. The church grew. The church developed, evolved, and in some ways, unfortunately, mutated.
There are indications in Scripture that Peter was seen as the "First among equals" among the Apostles--- like the pope, today, among the bishops. To be a Cardinal is honorary. There's no official office higher than a bishop, and the pope is the bishop Of Rome. But with reference to Peter, it's too long of a reach to try to say he was the first pope. Yes, I know most point to Peter to confirm all of that.But there was no PAPACY back then. Peter would have said: "Papist? What's a papist?"
Sacraments as we know them EVOLVED along with the institution, the development of doctrine and everything else. Was Jesus instituting a sacrament at the Last Supper, the way we identify it? Certainly not.
But you can't freeze ANYTHING in time. Theology, Philosophy, Art, Literature, Theater, Architecture, Biology.... whatever you can name moves and changes. The idea that we could all remove ourselves and go back to the earliest days of Christianity is a fool's errand. and even if we wanted to do it, the Jewish sages of Jamnia decided to divorce Christians from the religion of Jesus. Together with Paul's missionary work, the church became gentile.
...Yes, yes, yes, there are so-called Messianic Jews around, here and there. With all due respect to the Jewish faith, that combination is like attaching mayonnaise with chocolate. "It just won't fly, Orville!" Of course, people run around claiming all sorts of things. No way to stop that. I just say to them: "Sorry, but I don't follow your non-sequitur."
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