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Would you say that the flesh of Jesus Christ which suffered, bled, and died for us is worthless or of no avail?
No I wouldn’t, but that has nothing to do with what Jesus said in John 6:63.
Many believers turned away from Jesus because they understood His words to be eating His flesh lierally and drinking His blood literally. What they didn’t get was that He was teaching them that He was the bread of life. He said the Spirit gives life. The flesh profits nothing.
That verse does not pertain to the Eucharist.
I’ve seen plenty of arguments against the Catholic Eucharist by low church Evangelical Protestants, most notably calling it Idolatry, but not that one.
That one’s quite a stretch on words, a bit like “call no man father”, as it relates to Catholic Priests.
John 6:63 is in the context of Jesus talking about eating His flesh and drinking His blood. Read the whole chapter.
Of course, Catholics see Communion on a spiritual level - a mystery of faith.
You are on some campaign for anti-Catholicism. It's like an ex-husband who you can't get over!
Catholics believe in transubstantiation, changing the bread and fruit of the vine to the body and blood of Christ. That is not Biblical. It is a doctrine of men.
I am not against Catholics. I have family and many friends who are Catholic. What I am against is false teaching. So was Jesus.
You may want to do your own research, or ask your priest if the following is true or not.
"From the First to the Twelfth Century: It may be stated as a general fact, that down to the twelfth century, in the West as well as in the East, public Communion in the churches was ordinarily administered and received under both kinds. That such was the practice in Apostolic times is implied in I Cor., xi, 28 (see above), nor does the abbreviated reference to the "breaking of bread" in the Acts of the Apostles (ii, 46) prove anything to the contrary. The witness to the same effect for the sub-Apostolic and subsequent ages are too numerous, and the fact itself too clearly beyond dispute, to require that the evidence should be cited here." (New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia, Communion under Both Kinds)
"Since the Twelfth Century: The final suppression of intinctio was followed in the thirteenth century by the gradual abolition for the laity of Communion under the species of wine. The desuetude of the chalice was not yet universal in St. Thomas' time (d. 1274): "provide in quibusdam ecclesiis observatur", he says "ut populo sanguis sumendus non detur, sed solum a sacerdote sumatur" (Summa, III, Q. lxxx, a. 12). The Council of Lambeth (1281) directs that wine is to be received by the priest alone, and non-consecrated wine is to be received by the faithful (Mansi, XXIV, 405). It is impossible to say exactly when the new custom became universal or when, by the Church's approval, it acquired the force of law." (New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia, Communion under Both Kinds)
"Communion under both kinds was the prevailing usage in Apostolic Times." (Catholic Encyclopedia, IV, 176)
"Popes Leo & Gelasius emphatically condemned persons who abstained from the chalice." (Catholic Dictionary, 202)
Communion "under both kinds ... abolished in 1416, by the Council of Constance" (Lives and Times of the Roman Pontiffs, I, 111)
The Catholic Church restored the cup to the Laity in 1970 under Vatican II.
For Catholics, there was about 900 year period (Council of Lambeth, Council of Trent, communion under one kind/species) that ended in the 19th century under Vatican II (1970 AD).
My question is WHO gave the church the authority to change what Jesus instituted, and commanded?
Last edited by MissKate12; 11-17-2023 at 04:44 AM..
1 Corinthians 4:14-15: "Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel."
Philemon 10:"I urge you on behalf of my child Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment, who was once useless to you but is now useful to you and me."
...said Paul. Apparently, Paul saw himself as a 'father' to some. Did Paul get it wrong?
Or is it you who misunderstands what Christ meant?
Paul wasn’t suggesting that anyone call him Father. You’re reading something into Paul’s words that isn’t there. No one ever called Paul Father.
Jesus didn’t say “my flesh” is of no avail but “the flesh.”
"The flesh” is a New Testament phrase that is often used to describe human nature apart from God’s grace (see Mark 14:38; Romans 8:1-14; 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:1).
What Jesus means is that without God’s grace, belief in the Eucharist is impossible - you're not going to get there by your 'senses' only, without this grace!
Lookup the definition of 'sense'.
If his disciples are to believe his teaching, they must avail themselves to that grace, and the Faith that comes with it (Believing without seeing!).
We know he couldn’t have meant His flesh at Jn6:63, since he explained six times in verses 54-58 that His flesh would bring eternal life!!
Why would you think that Jesus would contradict himself?
Whether Jesus said His flesh or the flesh makes no difference. Read the context of John 6:63. Why were there some disciples wanting to leave Him? Because they understood His words literally. This is why He said the Spirit gives life. The flesh profits nothing.
I am the door; I am the vine; I am the good shepherd; I am the light of the world; I am the way, the truth and the life; I am the resurrection and the life; I am the bread of life.
Each of these statements are metaphors. A metaphor is a symbol which represents something else. Jesus was not a literal door, nor was He a literal vine, nor a loaf of bread, etc.
The bread represents Jesus body. The fruit of the vine represents Jesus blood.
When we partake of these representations of the body and blood of Jesus, He promises to be present with us (Matthew 26:29; Mark 14:25).
Transubstantiation is not found in the Scriptures. There is not one word about changing the bread and fruit of the vine into the body and blood of Jesus. It is but another of the many doctrines of men.
Transubstantiation is not found in the Scriptures. There is not one word about changing the bread and fruit of the vine into the body and blood of Jesus. It is but another of the many doctrines of men.
“I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it” is attributed to Voltaire.
Miss Kate, you are perfectly free to believe your statement.
However, your caustic posts aren't going to convert a Catholic to Protestantism. Especially, if you don't cite St Thomas Aquinas - LOL. But seriously, you don't know Catholic doctrines enough to debate.
FWIW - I will response to attacks on Christianity - like in cases of blurring the line between witchcraft and Christianity. I will debate really bad logic. However, there is no point to attempting to convert people. It doesn't work and makes the poster look tiresome.
Last edited by YorktownGal; 11-17-2023 at 07:05 AM..
You know scripture is only 1/3 of Catholicism but you continue to quote it in your arguments against it.
Scripture is 3rd hand information so it may not be the most accurate evidence.
And who told you that? The Catholic Church?
The Scriptures are inspired, God breathed. He said they were. He said they were all we need. If you don’t believe that, you are left with nothing but the doctrines of men, whether they be Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, or Denominational. If you’re willing to take that chance, so be it. I’ll take my chances with the word of God, where the very words of Jesus are found and where we get to know God.
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You are truly A Son of God in the Kingdom of Heaven.
