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...could you possibly explain how Doecism came to be.
Hi KATZPUR
1) REGARDING DOCETISM
I apologize KATZPUR.
Docetism is not represented in early Judeo-Christianity and so I have not studied Docetism much at all since it is only on the fringes of my interest.
Thus, Wikipedia and other sites will probably tell you more about it’s historical development than I can. (MysticPhD noticed my error in spelling Docetism and corrected it – thanks MysticPhD)
While some of MysticPhDs concepts do not seem (to me) to be representative of early Christian doctrine, perhaps some of my own models are in error as well and, like others, I simply need more and better data to improve my historical accuracy.
All of us, as religionists of faith, form models of what is going on and though I do not agree with some aspects of MysticPhDs models, I assume is partly because he seems quite educated in areas of physics where I lack knowledge and thus I do not understand some of these theories of physics. He is able to open windows of insights such theories for me, but I am still unable to walk through those doors without better understanding.
Once MysticPhD intimated a connection between the spirit of man and the possibility the intelligence of the spirit had a role in the creation of the body it was to inhabit at birth. This reminds me of Dr. J. Reuben Clarks similar theory in the booklet “Man, Gods greatest miracle” where he describes his belief that the information contained in DNA is insufficient to produce the intricacies of an entire body and he theorized the same as MysticPhD “seemed” to theorize. My point is that I think that often there are often elements of truth even inside religious models we do not wholly accept. I like those elements and insights even when I disagree with the larger theory.
Since I worked in a field of science for many years, I think there is probably a physical explanation that follows natural law (either known or unknown) at a quantum level for many supernatural events but am not sure what the value of such knowledge is in any moral or religious activity and thus have not had motivation to study physics to discover any application to early Judeo-Christianity. As one educated in physics, He may be able to answer much of the "how" religious-physical manifestations occur but my interests (mainly) like in the "why" they occurred.
So, while you, as a restorationist, will have a great advantage in creating models of ancient historical Christian beliefs over most posters, he and others with his training may have great advantage over most posters in creating models of the physics of the material world and how they might relate to Christian beliefs. I like some of his insights that I, myself, cannot generate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Docetism was heresy. After all, it denied Christ suffered during the crucifixion because it was not a physical body thereby completely negating its import and impact.
Hi MysticPhD
I agree that Docetism was not representative of early Judeo-Christianity and I like your reasoning on this point MysticPhD.
2) REGARDING THE EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIANITY AND IT'S VIEW OF THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE SPIRIT TO THE BODY
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Our ancestors and most still today completely identify their "Selves" with their bodies. They did not identify with Spirit. That was something to be feared. It would have been impossible to convey what Clear called "the most profound and important claim of early Judeo-Christianity." That is why it had to be a "glorified" physical body.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
A problem with your view is that twice in the NT, the concept presented is that man is trichotomous, that is, that man consists of three parts - body, soul, and spirit. In both 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12 the human spirit, the human soul, and the human body are separate parts of man. Therefore it is not accurate to say that 'they' did not identify with spirit (which with reference to the human spirit is with a lower case 's' in the English language).
Hi MysticPhD and Michael Way :
The early Judeo-Christian literature clearly and frequently describes their belief that the body was like a garment that the spirit “clothed” itself with. The spirit, in this model was the seat of intelligence and emotion and will and the body had no “life” and no intelligence or emotion or will without the spirit being within it.
3) REGARDING THE ANCIENT RELATIONSHIP OF THE BODY AND SPIRIT IN ANCIENT JUDEO-CHRISTIANITY
I cannot tell if Michael Ways trichonomism is simply a deeper version of dichonomism in ancient Judeo-Christianity or an entirely separate system of belief. The reason is that the early sacred literature seems to describe both.
For example, Jewish Zohar of the middle ages divides the “soul” or “spirit” of man itself into three parts while other descriptions divide the soul into only two parts: Body and Spirit, the later description being the more common.
Thus, I cannot tell if the trichonomism of “three parts” to the soul is simply a more detailed version of the more common “two part” description.
Examples of both allow us at least to compare the two descriptions.
Both ancient descriptions divides man into body and spirit.
The version in Jewish Zohar divides the spirit into three parts saying : “The names of and grades of the soul of man are three: nefesh [vital soul], ruah [spirit], neshama [innermost soul, super-soul]. The three are comprehended one within the other, but each has its separate abode…” (Since “Nefesh” also applies to animals, it is not the part of the spirit that makes us “human” and is associated with human emotion and intellect in this description.)
So, at death (the separation of the spirit from the body) in this model the Zohar describes :
… As it is written: “And the spirit [ruah] returneth unto God who gave it” [c.f. Eccles. 12:7], … “But Neshamah ascends forthwith to her place in the domain from which she emanated, and it is on her account that the light is lit, to shine above. Never thereafter does she descend to the earth… “
And finally this Jewish text summarizes:
“And until such time as Neshamah has ascended to be joined with the Throne, Ruah is unable to be crowned in the lower Garden and Nefesh cannot rest easy in it’s place; but these find rest when she ascends.” (The Zohar - The Three aspects of the soul)
However the earlier Jewish and Christian models most often simply describe the soul as a two-part being; Body and Spirit.
4) REGARDING WHETHER THE ANCIENT JUDEO-CHRISTIANS IDENTIFIED AS HAVING A SPIRIT WITHIN THEM
I agree with Michael Way that it is incorrect to say the ancients did not identify with the spirit within them.
The first prayer orthodox Jews says each morning upon awakening is the Modi Ani, which is a prayer of thanksgiving to God for returning their spirit back into their body. Orthodox Rabbinic Jewish tradition is that the spirit leaves the body each night and returns upon awakening in the morning.
Thus the Midrash Rabba says: “…when they sleep their souls ascend to Him… in the morning He restores one’s soul to everyone…”
Both Jews AND ancient Christians were certainly aware of the belief that a spirit is within each living individual.
In fact their doctrines regarding the spirit within them were quite detailed. Let me give a few more examples
5) THE ANCIENT DOCTRINE THAT SPIRITS OF INDIVIDUALS LOOKED LIKE THE BODY IT INHABITS
For example, both Christian and Jewish literature describe the belief that spirits had an appearance. This is why the disciples thought the bodily appearance of the resurrected Jesus was “a spirit”. And, each spirit had a similar appearance to the body it was destined to inhabit.
For examples: The Christian text (history of the Rechabites 15:9-10 taught: “…the appearance of the soul when it leaves the body is the likeness of a glorious light, and formed and imprinted in the likeness and type of the body,...”. (History of the Rechabites 15:9-10).
The ancient writer of jewish Napthali explains the early belief that “the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body.” (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5).
The wonderful Jewish Zohar explains that “each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant." (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)
6) CHARACTERISTICS GOD DETERMINES VERSUS PERSONAL CHARACTERISTICS OF THE SPIRIT
Early Judeo-Christianity possessed doctrines concerning the types of characteristics that belonged to his determination and those that were inherent to the individual spirit itself.
Speaking of the souls of men and the manner after which they are sent from their heavenly dwelling place to earth, the Haggadah relates : “The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him.”
Occasionally a spirit is reluctant to leave the untainted pre-mortal heaven for an earth where she knows her existence will be more difficult as she experiences the moral education of mortality. . In such accounts, God is NOT angry but the text says “ God consoles her.”
The text relates God telling the soul that “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.”
7) IN ANCIENT JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BELIEF, SPIRITS OF THE DEAD HAD A SIMILAR APPEARANCE TO THE BODY THEY INHABIT WHILE ALIVE
“There, this spirit, desiring to enjoy the pleasures of the magnificent Garden, vests itself in a garment, as it were, of a likeness, a semblance of the body in which it had its abode in this world...” [Eccl 12:7] ( The Zohar - The Three aspects of the soul
This is the same doctrine that one finds Clement teaching when he taught : “…this flesh is a copy of the spirit. No one, therefore, who corrupts the copy will share in the original” (2nd Clement 14:3)
This christian teaching was NOT a “new” judeo-christian tradition, but quite ancient.
Napthali’s text also taught this same principle thusly: “For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body” (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs- NAPTHALI 2:2-5)
8) GIVING THE SPIRIT A GLORIFIED BODY AFTER THE RESURRECTION WAS LIKENED UNTO PUTTING “CLOTHING" ONTO THE SPIRIT”
Not only was the separation of the spirit from the body at death, likened unto removing a garment the spirit wears while in mortality, but in similar symbolism, the placing of a spirit into a glorified body in the resurrection was likened unto “clothing” the spirit into “clothes of Glory”.
For example;
“ And the Lord said to Michael, “Go, and extract Enoch from [his] earthly clothing. And anoint him with my delightful oil, and put him into the clothes of my glory*. 9 And so Michael did, just as the Lord had said to him. He anointed me and he clothed me. ...10 And I looked at myself, and I had become like one of his glorious ones, and there was no observable difference.” 2nd Enoch 22:8-10
This imagery of extracting a person from his garment is close to the terminology of Daniel 7:15, “my spirit was upset inside its sheath.”
Philip, in his prayer before martyrdom, and evidently anticipating the heavenly condition (cf. Acts 6:15), says, “Clothe me in thy glorious robe and the seal of light that ever shineth” (James, ANT, p. 450),
Origen (On First Principles, 2.3.7) speaks of the best and purest spirits, who must have some kind of body, being changed according to their degree of merit into an ethereal condition
The same idea is found in the Dead Sea Scroll textual traditions. 1QapGen 2:10, “and my breath within its sheath.” (Such transparent Hebraisms are represented by being placed into a separate container or set of clothes. Just as the sheath is not the spirit and clothes are not the spirit, the body was not the personality and intelligence and emotions within the body.
Even the wonderful Babylonian Talmud : Tractate Shabbath : folio 152b teaches the Jews that “Our Rabbis taught: 'And the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit return unto God who gave it': Render it back to him as He gave it to thee, [viz.,] in purity, so do thou [return it] in purity. This may be compared to a mortal king who distributed royal apparel to his servants. The wise among them folded it up and laid it away in a chest, whereas the fools among them went and did their work in them. After a time the king demanded his garments: the wise among them returned them to him immaculate, [but] the fools among them returned them soiled. The king was pleased with the wise but angry with the fools. Of the wise he said, 'Let my robes be placed in my treasury and they can go home in peace'; while of the fools he said, 'Let my robes be given to the fuller, and let them be confined in prison.' Thus too, with the Holy One, blessed be He: concerning the bodies of the righteous He says, “He entereth into peace, they rest in their beds.”
Other literature of the Talmudic period provide many examples of the body and soul in partnership:
“Just as the Holy One of Blessing fills the world, so does the soul [neshamah] fill the body. Just as the Holy One of Blessing sees but cannot be seen, so does the soul see but cannot be seen… Just as the Holy One of Blessing is pure, so is the soul pure” (Berakhot 10a).
In Midrash Leviticus Rabbah, we read that the soul is a guest in the body (which it directs).
9) THE SPIRIT IS JUDGED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE BODY IT INHABITED IN THIS LIFE
Often the Talmud provides wonderful anecdotes which are applicable in multiple levels.
For example, from the tractate Sanhedrin: The Emperor Antoninus tries to convince Rabbi Yehudah Hanasi that the body and soul can each excuse themselves from sin by claiming that the transgression is the fault of the other, since without its counterpart, the body is lifeless.
Rabbi Yehudah disputes this with a parable that is also a model of the relationship of the spirit and body. "Two guards–one blind and one lame–are in a garden. Together, they are able to steal some fruit from a high tree. When caught, each claims that he is obviously unable to commit the crime due to his disability. In the end, the orchard owner places the lame man on the back of the blind man, and they are judged as one" (91b). Similarly, God judges the actions of the body and spirit in partnership after returning the spirit to the body at resurrection.
There are even Christian versions of this parable that are worded almost exactly the same.
There are many, many, examples in the early Judeo-Christian literature that describes the early worldviews and doctrines of early Judaism and early Christianity on this specific subject that demonstrate the ancient Judeo-Christians saw themselves as spirit inhabiting bodies and that a glorified body had some importance beyond this life and in the worlds to come.
Please understand MysticPhD that I enjoy and value many of your wonderful insights. This is simply a very specific doctrine where I think Michael Way is correct regarding early Judeo-Christian doctrine.
In any case, I hope your spiritual journeys are wonderful
Last edited by Clear lens; 05-10-2024 at 08:05 PM..
Docetism is not represented in early Judeo-Christianity and so I have not studied Docetism much at all since it is only on the fringes of my interest.
Thus, Wikipedia and other sites will probably tell you more about it’s historical development than I can. (MysticPhD noticed my error in spelling Docetism and corrected it – thanks MysticPhD)
While some of MysticPhDs concepts do not seem (to me) to be representative of early Christian doctrine, perhaps some of my own models are in error as well and, like others, I simply need more and better data to improve my historical accuracy.
All of us, as religionists of faith, form models of what is going on and though I do not agree with some aspects of MysticPhDs models, I assume is partly because he seems quite educated in areas of physics where I lack knowledge and thus I do not understand some of these theories of physics. He is able to open windows of insights such theories for me, but I am still unable to walk through those doors without better understanding.
Once MysticPhD intimated a connection between the spirit of man and the possibility the intelligence of the spirit had a role in the creation of the body it was to inhabit at birth. This reminds me of Dr. J. Reuben Clarks similar theory in the booklet “Man, Gods greatest miracle” where he describes his belief that the information contained in DNA is insufficient to produce the intricacies of an entire body and he theorized the same as MysticPhD “seemed” to theorize. My point is that I think that often there are often elements of truth even inside religious models we do not wholly accept. I like those elements and insights even when I disagree with the larger theory.
Since I worked in a field of science for many years, I think there is probably a physical explanation that follows natural law (either known or unknown) at a quantum level for many supernatural events but am not sure what the value of such knowledge is in any moral or religious activity and thus have not had motivation to study physics to discover any application to early Judeo-Christianity. As one educated in physics, He may be able to answer much of the "how" religious-physical manifestations occur but my interests (mainly) like in the "why" they occurred.
So, while you, as a restorationist, will have a great advantage in creating models of ancient historical Christian beliefs over most posters, he and others with his training may have great advantage over most posters in creating models of the physics of the material world and how they might relate to Christian beliefs. I like some of his insights that I, myself, cannot generate.
Hi MysticPhD
I agree that Docetism was not representative of early Judeo-Christianity and I like your reasoning on this point MysticPhD.
2) REGARDING THE EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIANITY AND IT'S VIEW OF THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE SPIRIT TO THE BODY
Hi MysticPhD and Michael Way :
The early Judeo-Christian literature clearly and frequently describes their belief that the body was like a garment that the spirit “clothed” itself with. The spirit, in this model was the seat of intelligence and emotion and will and the body had no “life” and no intelligence or emotion or will without the spirit being within it.
3) REGARDING THE ANCIENT RELATIONSHIP OF THE BODY AND SPIRIT IN ANCIENT JUDEO-CHRISTIANITY
I cannot tell if Michael Ways trichonomism is simply a deeper version of dichonomism in ancient Judeo-Christianity or an entirely separate system of belief. The reason is that the early sacred literature seems to describe both.
For example, Jewish Zohar of the middle ages divides the “soul” or “spirit” of man itself into three parts while other descriptions divide the soul into only two parts: Body and Spirit, the later description being the more common.
Thus, I cannot tell if the trichonomism of “three parts” to the soul is simply a more detailed version of the more common “two part” description.
Examples of both allow us at least to compare the two descriptions.
Both ancient descriptions divides man into body and spirit.
The version in Jewish Zohar divides the spirit into three parts saying : “The names of and grades of the soul of man are three: nefesh [vital soul], ruah [spirit], neshama [innermost soul, super-soul]. The three are comprehended one within the other, but each has its separate abode…” (Since “Nefesh” also applies to animals, it is not the part of the spirit that makes us “human” and is associated with human emotion and intellect in this description.)
So, at death (the separation of the spirit from the body) in this model the Zohar describes :
… As it is written: “And the spirit [ruah] returneth unto God who gave it” [c.f. Eccles. 12:7], … “But Neshamah ascends forthwith to her place in the domain from which she emanated, and it is on her account that the light is lit, to shine above. Never thereafter does she descend to the earth… “
And finally this Jewish text summarizes:
“And until such time as Neshamah has ascended to be joined with the Throne, Ruah is unable to be crowned in the lower Garden and Nefesh cannot rest easy in it’s place; but these find rest when she ascends.” (The Zohar - The Three aspects of the soul)
However the earlier Jewish and Christian models most often simply describe the soul as a two-part being; Body and Spirit.
4) REGARDING WHETHER THE ANCIENT JUDEO-CHRISTIANS IDENTIFIED AS HAVING A SPIRIT WITHIN THEM
I agree with Michael Way that it is incorrect to say the ancients did not identify with the spirit within them.
The first prayer orthodox Jews says each morning upon awakening is the Modi Ani, which is a prayer of thanksgiving to God for returning their spirit back into their body. Orthodox Rabbinic Jewish tradition is that the spirit leaves the body each night and returns upon awakening in the morning.
Thus the Midrash Rabba says: “…when they sleep their souls ascend to Him… in the morning He restores one’s soul to everyone…”
Both Jews AND ancient Christians were certainly aware of the belief that a spirit is within each living individual.
In fact their doctrines regarding the spirit within them were quite detailed. Let me give a few more examples
5) THE ANCIENT DOCTRINE THAT SPIRITS OF INDIVIDUALS LOOKED LIKE THE BODY IT INHABITS
For example, both Christian and Jewish literature describe the belief that spirits had an appearance. This is why the disciples thought the bodily appearance of the resurrected Jesus was “a spirit”. And, each spirit had a similar appearance to the body it was destined to inhabit.
For examples: The Christian text (history of the Rechabites 15:9-10 taught: “…the appearance of the soulwhen it leaves the body is the likeness of a glorious light, and formed and imprinted in the likeness and type of the body,...”. (History of the Rechabites 15:9-10).
Bless you, Clear. You have been a wonderful addition to this forum. It would seem they did identify with having a Spirit within them and even suspected it was at the level of quanta (light) as implied in the bold. This agrees with my view that it is NOT a physical body but has the appearance of one at the quanta level. That is why I liked the movie Shallow Hal. It portrayed this concept and linked its appearance with our character. I still believe they and most today still believe the Spirit that inhabits them is from God but THEY are the body and if they don't get it back they will not be the ones "resurrected." I like the Jewish interpretation of the Neshamah. I believe our Real Self is the Neshamah and it is "born again" as fully Spirit "never to return to earth."
Quote:
The ancient writer of jewish Napthali explains the early belief that “the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body.” (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5).
The wonderful Jewish Zohar explains that “each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant." (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)
6) CHARACTERISTICS GOD DETERMINES VERSUS PERSONAL CHARACTERISTICS OF THE SPIRIT
Early Judeo-Christianity possessed doctrines concerning the types of characteristics that belonged to his determination and those that were inherent to the individual spirit itself.
Speaking of the souls of men and the manner after which they are sent from their heavenly dwelling place to earth, the Haggadah relates : “The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him.”
Occasionally a spirit is reluctant to leave the untainted pre-mortal heaven for an earth where she knows her existence will be more difficult as she experiences the moral education of mortality. . In such accounts, God is NOT angry but the text says “ God consoles her.”
The text relates God telling the soul that “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.”
7) IN ANCIENT JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BELIEF, SPIRITS OF THE DEAD HAD A SIMILAR APPEARANCE TO THE BODY THEY INHABIT WHILE ALIVE
“There, this spirit, desiring to enjoy the pleasures of the magnificent Garden, vests itself in a garment, as it were, of a likeness, a semblance of the body in which it had its abode in this world...” [Eccl 12:7] ( The Zohar - The Three aspects of the soul
This is the same doctrine that one finds Clement teaching when he taught : “…this flesh is a copy of the spirit. No one, therefore, who corrupts the copy will share in the original” (2nd Clement 14:3)
This christian teaching was NOT a “new” judeo-christian tradition, but quite ancient.
Napthali’s text also taught this same principle thusly: “For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body” (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs- NAPTHALI 2:2-5)
8) GIVING THE SPIRIT A GLORIFIED BODY AFTER THE RESURRECTION WAS LIKENED UNTO PUTTING “CLOTHING" ONTO THE SPIRIT”
Not only was the separation of the spirit from the body at death, likened unto removing a garment the spirit wears while in mortality, but in similar symbolism, the placing of a spirit into a glorified body in the resurrection was likened unto “clothing” the spirit into “clothes of Glory”.
For example;
“ And the Lord said to Michael, “Go, and extract Enoch from [his] earthly clothing. And anoint him with my delightful oil, and put him into the clothes of my glory*. 9 And so Michael did, just as the Lord had said to him. He anointed me and he clothed me. ...10 And I looked at myself, and I had become like one of his glorious ones, and there was no observable difference.” 2nd Enoch 22:8-10
This imagery of extracting a person from his garment is close to the terminology of Daniel 7:15, “my spirit was upset inside its sheath.”
Philip, in his prayer before martyrdom, and evidently anticipating the heavenly condition (cf. Acts 6:15), says, “Clothe me in thy glorious robe and the seal of light that ever shineth” (James, ANT, p. 450),
Origen (On First Principles, 2.3.7) speaks of the best and purest spirits, who must have some kind of body, being changed according to their degree of merit into an ethereal condition
The same idea is found in the Dead Sea Scroll textual traditions. 1QapGen 2:10, “and my breath within its sheath.” (Such transparent Hebraisms are represented by being placed into a separate container or set of clothes. Just as the sheath is not the spirit and clothes are not the spirit, the body was not the personality and intelligence and emotions within the body.
Even the wonderful Babylonian Talmud : Tractate Shabbath : folio 152b teaches the Jews that “Our Rabbis taught: 'And the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit return unto God who gave it': Render it back to him as He gave it to thee, [viz.,] in purity, so do thou [return it] in purity. This may be compared to a mortal king who distributed royal apparel to his servants. The wise among them folded it up and laid it away in a chest, whereas the fools among them went and did their work in them. After a time the king demanded his garments: the wise among them returned them to him immaculate, [but] the fools among them returned them soiled. The king was pleased with the wise but angry with the fools. Of the wise he said, 'Let my robes be placed in my treasury and they can go home in peace'; while of the fools he said, 'Let my robes be given to the fuller, and let them be confined in prison.' Thus too, with the Holy One, blessed be He: concerning the bodies of the righteous He says, “He entereth into peace, they rest in their beds.”
Other literature of the Talmudic period provide many examples of the body and soul in partnership:
“Just as the Holy One of Blessing fills the world, so does the soul [neshamah] fill the body. Just as the Holy One of Blessing sees but cannot be seen, so does the soul see but cannot be seen… Just as the Holy One of Blessing is pure, so is the soul pure” (Berakhot 10a).
In Midrash Leviticus Rabbah, we read that the soul is a guest in the body (which it directs).
9) THE SPIRIT IS JUDGED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE BODY IT INHABITED IN THIS LIFE
Often the Talmud provides wonderful anecdotes which are applicable in multiple levels.
For example, from the tractate Sanhedrin: The Emperor Antoninus tries to convince Rabbi Yehudah Hanasi that the body and soul can each excuse themselves from sin by claiming that the transgression is the fault of the other, since without its counterpart, the body is lifeless.
Rabbi Yehudah disputes this with a parable that is also a model of the relationship of the spirit and body. "Two guards–one blind and one lame–are in a garden. Together, they are able to steal some fruit from a high tree. When caught, each claims that he is obviously unable to commit the crime due to his disability. In the end, the orchard owner places the lame man on the back of the blind man, and they are judged as one" (91b). Similarly, God judges the actions of the body and spirit in partnership after returning the spirit to the body at resurrection.
There are even Christian versions of this parable that are worded almost exactly the same.
There are many, many, examples in the early Judeo-Christian literature that describes the early worldviews and doctrines of early Judaism and early Christianity on this specific subject that demonstrate the ancient Judeo-Christians saw themselves as spirit inhabiting bodies and that a glorified body had some importance beyond this life and in the worlds to come.
Please understand MysticPhD that I enjoy and value many of your wonderful insights. This is simply a very specific doctrine where I think Michael Way is correct regarding early Judeo-Christian doctrine.
In any case, I hope your spiritual journeys are wonderful
Also, could you possibly explain how Doecism came to be.
The best answer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Without a physical resurrection, there would have been no "resurrection" that anyone could identify with. Even the learned Nicodemus did not understand the birth of Spirit. Spirit was not them. It was "something other." It would not have had the impact it has had for over two millennia and counting. Docetism was heresy. After all, it denied Christ suffered during the crucifixion because it was not a physical body thereby completely negating its import and impact.
Quote:
John 20:19
New International Version
Jesus Appears to His Disciples
19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”
I've always taken this to mean that Jesus appeared suddenly in a locked room. Obviously, a human body can't do this.
Likewise, Christ left his tomb guarded by Roman soldiers without being seen.
When Christ's resurrected body changed from its physical state or how it changed is a mystery of faith.
While it's good to discussion this, we simply will not understand everything on earth. It's okay to live with ambiguity.
I've always taken this to mean that Jesus appeared suddenly in a locked room. Obviously, a human body can't do this.
Likewise, Christ left his tomb guarded by Roman soldiers without being seen.
When Christ's resurrected body changed from its physical state or how it changed is a mystery of faith.
While it's good to discussion this, we simply will not understand everything on earth. It's okay to live with ambiguity.
I don't believe that Jesus' resurrected body was "human." I just believe it was a glorified, immortal, corporeal body. I don't understand how He could appear in a room without walking through the door, but I believe He did. It's just one more miracle, IMO.
He spent 40 days among His disciples and when He left them, they saw Him ascending into Heaven. And thy were told He would return in like manner. At what point do you believe He shed His corporeal body? And where is it now?
6) CHARACTERISTICS GOD DETERMINES VERSUS PERSONAL CHARACTERISTICS OF THE SPIRIT
Early Judeo-Christianity possessed doctrines concerning the types of characteristics that belonged to his determination and those that were inherent to the individual spirit itself.
Speaking of the souls of men and the manner after which they are sent from their heavenly dwelling place to earth, the Haggadah relates : “The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him.”
Occasionally a spirit is reluctant to leave the untainted pre-mortal heaven for an earth where she knows her existence will be more difficult as she experiences the moral education of mortality. . In such accounts, God is NOT angry but the text says “ God consoles her.”
The text relates God telling the soul that “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.”
Wow! So the earliest Christians apparently believed in a pre-mortal life!
I started a thread a while back called, "The Life Before in Literature and the Scriptures" in which I proposed the idea of a pre-mortal existence. Of course, I was the only one who believed in such a thing. Would you mind posting more about this topic on that thread? It would be much appreciated.
Docetism is not represented in early Judeo-Christianity and so I have not studied Docetism much at all since it is only on the fringes of my interest.
Thus, Wikipedia and other sites will probably tell you more about it’s historical development than I can. (MysticPhD noticed my error in spelling Docetism and corrected it – thanks MysticPhD)
While some of MysticPhDs concepts do not seem (to me) to be representative of early Christian doctrine, perhaps some of my own models are in error as well and, like others, I simply need more and better data to improve my historical accuracy.
All of us, as religionists of faith, form models of what is going on and though I do not agree with some aspects of MysticPhDs models, I assume is partly because he seems quite educated in areas of physics where I lack knowledge and thus I do not understand some of these theories of physics. He is able to open windows of insights such theories for me, but I am still unable to walk through those doors without better understanding.
Once MysticPhD intimated a connection between the spirit of man and the possibility the intelligence of the spirit had a role in the creation of the body it was to inhabit at birth. This reminds me of Dr. J. Reuben Clarks similar theory in the booklet “Man, Gods greatest miracle” where he describes his belief that the information contained in DNA is insufficient to produce the intricacies of an entire body and he theorized the same as MysticPhD “seemed” to theorize. My point is that I think that often there are often elements of truth even inside religious models we do not wholly accept. I like those elements and insights even when I disagree with the larger theory.
Since I worked in a field of science for many years, I think there is probably a physical explanation that follows natural law (either known or unknown) at a quantum level for many supernatural events but am not sure what the value of such knowledge is in any moral or religious activity and thus have not had motivation to study physics to discover any application to early Judeo-Christianity. As one educated in physics, He may be able to answer much of the "how" religious-physical manifestations occur but my interests (mainly) like in the "why" they occurred.
So, while you, as a restorationist, will have a great advantage in creating models of ancient historical Christian beliefs over most posters, he and others with his training may have great advantage over most posters in creating models of the physics of the material world and how they might relate to Christian beliefs. I like some of his insights that I, myself, cannot generate.
Hi MysticPhD
I agree that Docetism was not representative of early Judeo-Christianity and I like your reasoning on this point MysticPhD.
2) REGARDING THE EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIANITY AND IT'S VIEW OF THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE SPIRIT TO THE BODY
Hi MysticPhD and Michael Way :
The early Judeo-Christian literature clearly and frequently describes their belief that the body was like a garment that the spirit “clothed” itself with. The spirit, in this model was the seat of intelligence and emotion and will and the body had no “life” and no intelligence or emotion or will without the spirit being within it.
3) REGARDING THE ANCIENT RELATIONSHIP OF THE BODY AND SPIRIT IN ANCIENT JUDEO-CHRISTIANITY
I cannot tell if Michael Ways trichonomism is simply a deeper version of dichonomism in ancient Judeo-Christianity or an entirely separate system of belief. The reason is that the early sacred literature seems to describe both.
For example, Jewish Zohar of the middle ages divides the “soul” or “spirit” of man itself into three parts while other descriptions divide the soul into only two parts: Body and Spirit, the later description being the more common.
Thus, I cannot tell if the trichonomism of “three parts” to the soul is simply a more detailed version of the more common “two part” description.
Examples of both allow us at least to compare the two descriptions.
Both ancient descriptions divides man into body and spirit.
The version in Jewish Zohar divides the spirit into three parts saying : “The names of and grades of the soul of man are three: nefesh [vital soul], ruah [spirit], neshama [innermost soul, super-soul]. The three are comprehended one within the other, but each has its separate abode…” (Since “Nefesh” also applies to animals, it is not the part of the spirit that makes us “human” and is associated with human emotion and intellect in this description.)
So, at death (the separation of the spirit from the body) in this model the Zohar describes :
… As it is written: “And the spirit [ruah] returneth unto God who gave it” [c.f. Eccles. 12:7], … “But Neshamah ascends forthwith to her place in the domain from which she emanated, and it is on her account that the light is lit, to shine above. Never thereafter does she descend to the earth… “
And finally this Jewish text summarizes:
“And until such time as Neshamah has ascended to be joined with the Throne, Ruah is unable to be crowned in the lower Garden and Nefesh cannot rest easy in it’s place; but these find rest when she ascends.” (The Zohar - The Three aspects of the soul)
However the earlier Jewish and Christian models most often simply describe the soul as a two-part being; Body and Spirit.
4) REGARDING WHETHER THE ANCIENT JUDEO-CHRISTIANS IDENTIFIED AS HAVING A SPIRIT WITHIN THEM
I agree with Michael Way that it is incorrect to say the ancients did not identify with the spirit within them.
The first prayer orthodox Jews says each morning upon awakening is the Modi Ani, which is a prayer of thanksgiving to God for returning their spirit back into their body. Orthodox Rabbinic Jewish tradition is that the spirit leaves the body each night and returns upon awakening in the morning.
Thus the Midrash Rabba says: “…when they sleep their souls ascend to Him… in the morning He restores one’s soul to everyone…”
Both Jews AND ancient Christians were certainly aware of the belief that a spirit is within each living individual.
In fact their doctrines regarding the spirit within them were quite detailed. Let me give a few more examples
5) THE ANCIENT DOCTRINE THAT SPIRITS OF INDIVIDUALS LOOKED LIKE THE BODY IT INHABITS
For example, both Christian and Jewish literature describe the belief that spirits had an appearance. This is why the disciples thought the bodily appearance of the resurrected Jesus was “a spirit”. And, each spirit had a similar appearance to the body it was destined to inhabit.
For examples: The Christian text (history of the Rechabites 15:9-10 taught: “…the appearance of the soul when it leaves the body is the likeness of a glorious light, and formed and imprinted in the likeness and type of the body,...”. (History of the Rechabites 15:9-10).
The ancient writer of jewish Napthali explains the early belief that “the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body.” (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5).
The wonderful Jewish Zohar explains that “each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant." (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)
6) CHARACTERISTICS GOD DETERMINES VERSUS PERSONAL CHARACTERISTICS OF THE SPIRIT
Early Judeo-Christianity possessed doctrines concerning the types of characteristics that belonged to his determination and those that were inherent to the individual spirit itself.
Speaking of the souls of men and the manner after which they are sent from their heavenly dwelling place to earth, the Haggadah relates : “The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him.”
Occasionally a spirit is reluctant to leave the untainted pre-mortal heaven for an earth where she knows her existence will be more difficult as she experiences the moral education of mortality. . In such accounts, God is NOT angry but the text says “ God consoles her.”
The text relates God telling the soul that “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.”
7) IN ANCIENT JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BELIEF, SPIRITS OF THE DEAD HAD A SIMILAR APPEARANCE TO THE BODY THEY INHABIT WHILE ALIVE
“There, this spirit, desiring to enjoy the pleasures of the magnificent Garden, vests itself in a garment, as it were, of a likeness, a semblance of the body in which it had its abode in this world...” [Eccl 12:7] ( The Zohar - The Three aspects of the soul
This is the same doctrine that one finds Clement teaching when he taught : “…this flesh is a copy of the spirit. No one, therefore, who corrupts the copy will share in the original” (2nd Clement 14:3)
This christian teaching was NOT a “new” judeo-christian tradition, but quite ancient.
Napthali’s text also taught this same principle thusly: “For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body” (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs- NAPTHALI 2:2-5)
8) GIVING THE SPIRIT A GLORIFIED BODY AFTER THE RESURRECTION WAS LIKENED UNTO PUTTING “CLOTHING" ONTO THE SPIRIT”
Not only was the separation of the spirit from the body at death, likened unto removing a garment the spirit wears while in mortality, but in similar symbolism, the placing of a spirit into a glorified body in the resurrection was likened unto “clothing” the spirit into “clothes of Glory”.
For example;
“ And the Lord said to Michael, “Go, and extract Enoch from [his] earthly clothing. And anoint him with my delightful oil, and put him into the clothes of my glory*. 9 And so Michael did, just as the Lord had said to him. He anointed me and he clothed me. ...10 And I looked at myself, and I had become like one of his glorious ones, and there was no observable difference.” 2nd Enoch 22:8-10
This imagery of extracting a person from his garment is close to the terminology of Daniel 7:15, “my spirit was upset inside its sheath.”
Philip, in his prayer before martyrdom, and evidently anticipating the heavenly condition (cf. Acts 6:15), says, “Clothe me in thy glorious robe and the seal of light that ever shineth” (James, ANT, p. 450),
Origen (On First Principles, 2.3.7) speaks of the best and purest spirits, who must have some kind of body, being changed according to their degree of merit into an ethereal condition
The same idea is found in the Dead Sea Scroll textual traditions. 1QapGen 2:10, “and my breath within its sheath.” (Such transparent Hebraisms are represented by being placed into a separate container or set of clothes. Just as the sheath is not the spirit and clothes are not the spirit, the body was not the personality and intelligence and emotions within the body.
Even the wonderful Babylonian Talmud : Tractate Shabbath : folio 152b teaches the Jews that “Our Rabbis taught: 'And the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit return unto God who gave it': Render it back to him as He gave it to thee, [viz.,] in purity, so do thou [return it] in purity. This may be compared to a mortal king who distributed royal apparel to his servants. The wise among them folded it up and laid it away in a chest, whereas the fools among them went and did their work in them. After a time the king demanded his garments: the wise among them returned them to him immaculate, [but] the fools among them returned them soiled. The king was pleased with the wise but angry with the fools. Of the wise he said, 'Let my robes be placed in my treasury and they can go home in peace'; while of the fools he said, 'Let my robes be given to the fuller, and let them be confined in prison.' Thus too, with the Holy One, blessed be He: concerning the bodies of the righteous He says, “He entereth into peace, they rest in their beds.”
Other literature of the Talmudic period provide many examples of the body and soul in partnership:
“Just as the Holy One of Blessing fills the world, so does the soul [neshamah] fill the body. Just as the Holy One of Blessing sees but cannot be seen, so does the soul see but cannot be seen… Just as the Holy One of Blessing is pure, so is the soul pure” (Berakhot 10a).
In Midrash Leviticus Rabbah, we read that the soul is a guest in the body (which it directs).
9) THE SPIRIT IS JUDGED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE BODY IT INHABITED IN THIS LIFE
Often the Talmud provides wonderful anecdotes which are applicable in multiple levels.
For example, from the tractate Sanhedrin: The Emperor Antoninus tries to convince Rabbi Yehudah Hanasi that the body and soul can each excuse themselves from sin by claiming that the transgression is the fault of the other, since without its counterpart, the body is lifeless.
Rabbi Yehudah disputes this with a parable that is also a model of the relationship of the spirit and body. "Two guards–one blind and one lame–are in a garden. Together, they are able to steal some fruit from a high tree. When caught, each claims that he is obviously unable to commit the crime due to his disability. In the end, the orchard owner places the lame man on the back of the blind man, and they are judged as one" (91b). Similarly, God judges the actions of the body and spirit in partnership after returning the spirit to the body at resurrection.
There are even Christian versions of this parable that are worded almost exactly the same.
There are many, many, examples in the early Judeo-Christian literature that describes the early worldviews and doctrines of early Judaism and early Christianity on this specific subject that demonstrate the ancient Judeo-Christians saw themselves as spirit inhabiting bodies and that a glorified body had some importance beyond this life and in the worlds to come.
Please understand MysticPhD that I enjoy and value many of your wonderful insights. This is simply a very specific doctrine where I think Michael Way is correct regarding early Judeo-Christian doctrine.
In any case, I hope your spiritual journeys are wonderful
Hi, Clear lens.
I'm not sure why you think that Docetism was not represented in early Judeo-Christianity since it was a very early teaching in the early church although it is perhaps debatable as to whether the teaching originated within the early church or intruded into the early church from outside.
Docetism was the teaching that Jesus wasn't fully human . . .that he only appeared to have a human body which was an illusion. Eusebius of Caeasrea in History of the Church 6.12.6 mentioned Docetae with reference to Serapion of Antioch who wrote against Docetism in one of his letters (to the church at Rhossos) apparently during the time frame of (AD. 197-203).
6. For having obtained this Gospel from others who had studied it diligently, namely, from the successors of those who first used it, whom we call Docetæ (for most of their opinions are connected with the teaching of that school ) we have been able to read it through, and we find many things in accordance with the true doctrine of the Saviour, but some things added to that doctrine, which we have pointed out for you farther on. So much in regard to Serapion.
Serapion seems to have detected Docetism in the Gospel of Peter which as far as I can tell must refer to verses 39-40. I don't see where else in that gospel he might have come to that understanding.
[39] And while they were relating what they had seen, again they see three males who have come out from they sepulcher, with the two supporting the other one, and a cross following them, [40] and the head of the two reaching unto heaven, but that of the one being led out by a hand by them going beyond the heavens.
Historian Everett Ferguson in his book 'Church History', volume one, From Christ to the Pre-Reformation, commenting on Docetism writes on p. 55,
Ignatius was especially concerned about division in the churches, occasioned by the false teachings both of the Docetists, who said that Jesus Christ only ''seemed'' or ''appeared'' to be truly human; and of the Judaizers, who promoted Jewish practices. The two kinds of false teaching may come from the same group---a Docetic view of Christ could have solved some problems for Jewish believers in overcoming the paradox of a crucified Messiah.
1 John 4:2 and 2 John 7 may have been directed against Docetic teachings since they emphasize Jesus' 'coming in the flesh' thus possibly implying that some were teaching that Jesus did not come 'in the flesh.'
Genesis 1:26-27 says “And God said, Let us make man according to our image, and according to our likeness; and let them control the fishes of the sea, and the winged creatures of the heaven, and the cattle, and all the earth, and all the reptiles , those crawling upon the earth.
Presumably God could have created the body of man in another shape and appearance but instead, he chose to create the body of Adam in Gods own appearance and similitude.
Are you sure your statement is correct? I see the phrase 'our image' in the verse you quoted.
Obviously, there is more than one image being referenced in Genesis 1:26.
Thus, it was not just God's own appearance and similitude that shaped Man.
Hi, Clear lens.
I'm not sure why you think that Docetism was not represented in early Judeo-Christianity since it was a very early teaching in the early church although it is perhaps debatable as to whether the teaching originated within the early church or intruded into the early church from outside.
Docetism was the teaching that Jesus wasn't fully human . . .that he only appeared to have a human body which was an illusion.
Hi Michael Way
1) REGARDING THE DEFINITION OF DOCETISM
Firm Docetism maintains Jesus did not share in a material existence and thus he only appeared to act and only appeared to suffer. Such material actions were fascades that merely appeared to have taken place. Thus, firm Docetism denied Christ’s suffering, his material death, his material resurrection and his material ascension. It was sort of a "sham" that was done for "good reasons".
There are, of course, “mild” forms of Docetism.
The reason I do not think Docetism was either represented in or by early authentic Judeo-Christianity is that Docetism isn’t represented in and doesn’t appear to any significant degree in any of the ancient doctrines nor in the their ancient literature of belief of Judeo-Christianity.
2) AUTHENTIC JUDEO-CHRISTIAN DOCTRINES FOUND IN A VARIETY OF ANCIENT LITERATURE; FOUND OVER LARGE AMOUNTS OF TIME; AND FOUND IN MULTILPLE GEOGRAPHICAL LOCATIONS SEPARATED BY LARGE DISTANCES
Ancient Doctrines that occur in multiple early Judeo-Christian documents, in multiple religions and in multiple forms, and over long periods of time and are found over large geographical areas tend to have the highest evidential value for representing actual “authentic” ancient Judeo-Christian doctrines.
Docetism was not found (to my knowledge) in multiple early Judeo-Christian documents. It was not found to any significant degree in both Judaism and in Christian nor in Islamic documents. The lack of Docetism Christian literature for any significant length of time or over much of a geographical , are evidence against it being a significant part of ancient Judeo-Christian worldview.
3) A COMPARISON OF A DOCTRINE REPRESENTING EARLY ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE VERSUS DOCETISM THAT DOES NOT REPRESENT EARLY ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.
For example, the ancient doctrine of and references to spirits in mankind and the world of spirits is found in a vast and great genre of ancient Judeo-Christian literature, and such references are found in both Jewish and Christian literature, and such references are found to exist over a large period of time (hundreds of years), and such literature references are found over a great geographical space in many areas, etc.
Does any forum member have ANY references to the Doctrine of Docetism being taught in ancient Judeo-Christian literature that exist in any quantity, for any significant time period, or over large geographical regions? This is why I do not think Docetism was represented by or representation of early Judeo-Christianity.
4) A COMPARISON OF EVIDENCE FOR REPRESENTATIVE DOCTRINES VS DOCETISM : AN EXAMPLE OF THE DOCTRINE OF SPIRITS IN MANKIND AND THE EXISTENCE OF SUCH SPIRITS BEFORE, DURING, OR AFTER MORTALITY IN VAST AMOUNT OF SACRED EARLY LITERATURE
It is easy to demonstrate this doctrine of spirits was common in early Judeo-Christianity because it was found in Jewish and Christian and in syncretic Judeo-Christian literature, and it was found in a great deal of literature that for long periods of time, and it was found in multiple geographical places and those geographical places were separated by significance distance.
Such historical literary characteristics indicates this was a popular doctrine, taught to a large group of ancient Judeo-Christians that were separated by large distances and it was taught over long periods of time. This means it has the highest chance of being a popular and orthodox teaching.
References to spirits in man and the existence of such spirits before, during and after mortality are found in : 2nd Enoch, The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs – Napthali, The Apocryphon of Ezekiel. Fragment one, ch2 – even has an explanation from the Jewish Babylonia Talmud, Sanhedrin 91a,b., The History of the Rechabites, The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra; Testament of Moses; Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers; The Gospel of Thomas; Jewish Zohar; The gospel of Phillip; The Secret Book of John (of Sophia); The Haggadah (The Soul of Man); The Apocryphon of James; The Angad Roshnan - FROM THE PARTHIAN HYMN-CYCLES; 1st Enoch; The Fourth Book of Ezra; The Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah; The Questions of Ezra (Recension A); The Testament of Abraham; The Apocalypse of Zephaniah; multiple books in the Dea Sea Scrolls; The Odes of Solomon #17; The Apocalypse of Abraham; The Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah; The Testament of Abraham (recension A); The Life of Adam and Eve (apocalypse); The The gospel of Phillip, etc, etc. (there are other ancient literary sources documenting this doctrine)
Can any poster provide a list of ancient documents actually teaching docetism in ancient Judeo-Christianity for comparison?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
Eusebius of Caeasrea in History of the Church 6.12.6 mentioned Docetae with reference to Serapion of Antioch who wrote against Docetism in one of his letters (to the church at Rhossos) apparently during the time frame of (AD. 197-203).
6. For having obtained this Gospel from others who had studied it diligently, namely, from the successors of those who first used it, whom we call Docetæ (for most of their opinions are connected with the teaching of that school ) we have been able to read it through, and we find many things in accordance with the true doctrine of the Saviour, but some things added to that doctrine, which we have pointed out for you farther on. So much in regard to Serapion. https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250106.htm
Yes, Eusebius of Caeasrea mentions docetism because Serapion of Antioch mentions it.
However, where is any literature where the doctrine is taught?
Was the theory of Docetism a “flash in the pan” by a few people or did it represent any significant number of individuals who believed in it?
Where is the description in early literature by people who actually believed in it and taught it?
If it was representative or represented by early Christianity, we should have literary evidence of it.
5) THE SPECIFIC EXAMPLE FROM THE GOSPEL OF PETER DOES NOT SEEM TO PREACH DOCETISM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
Serapion seems to have detected Docetism in the Gospel of Peter which as far as I can tell must refer to verses 39-40. I don't see where else in that gospel he might have come to that understanding.
[39] And while they were relating what they had seen, again they see three males who have come out from they sepulcher, with the two supporting the other one, and a cross following them, [40] and the head of the two reaching unto heaven, but that of the one being led out by a hand by them going beyond the heavens. https://www.earlychristianwritings.c...ter-brown.html
Again, the historical problem of this reference is that Serapion may have theorized that Docetism was found in the Gospel of Peter, but, where in the gospel of Peter did he think actually he found the doctrine? Even Serapion doesn’t even give us any historical details from this example (though evidence may be found elsewhere if someone cares to study it...).
If you read the narrative before and after your reference “(39)”, you will notice the narrative simply references what “those soldiers” who had been guarding the sepulcher of the dead Jesus saw.
It describes them in vs 38 as “having seen” certain things.
And what is it the narrative says they saw?
Your reference in verse 39 says the soldiers saw two angels who accompany Jesus from the tomb and the soldiers: “see three males who have come out from the sepulchre , with the two supporting the other one, and a cross following them.”
Vs 41 says ‘And they were hearing a voice from the heavens saying, ‘Have you made proclamation to the fallen-asleep?’
vs 42 continues “And an obeisance was heard from the cross, ‘Yes.”
This is simply another of the many historical descriptions where Jesus had been to the world of spirits of those who were dead and had visited those who had ‘fallen-asleep’ (i.e. the spirits of those who had “died”).
These are the same narratives we find in other versions such as Barnabas and other narratives.
Thus, this specific example does not clearly speak to Docetism per se, but instead places the narrative squarely in the camp of the early accounts of Jesus spirit visiting the spirit world as his body lay in the tomb and of his subsequent bodily resurrection.
6) FERGUSON REFERS TO IGNATIUS - BUT THERE IS LITTLE EVIDENCE THAT IGNATIUS IS SPEAKING SPECIFICALLY OF A SCHISM OF DOCETISTS
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
Historian Everett Ferguson in his book 'Church History', volume one, From Christ to the Pre-Reformation, commenting on Docetism writes on p. 55,
Ignatius was especially concerned about division in the churches, occasioned by the false teachings both of the Docetists, who said that Jesus Christ only ''seemed'' or ''appeared'' to be truly human; and of the Judaizers, who promoted Jewish practices. The two kinds of false teaching may come from the same group---a Docetic view of Christ could have solved some problems for Jewish believers in overcoming the paradox of a crucified Messiah.
1 John 4:2 and 2 John 7 may have been directed against Docetic teachings since they emphasize Jesus' 'coming in the flesh' thus possibly implying that some were teaching that Jesus did not come 'in the flesh.'
The problem I have with this quote of Fergusons is that it simply repeats an earlier claim but this quote does not give us any supporting data or examples where Docetists actually did what he theorizes.
No docetic literature is offered.
No examples where docetic doctrines actually were what Ignatius was referring to among the early Christian movement.
Usually historians will be able to provide data supporting theories and claims.
However, this simple quote simply makes a claim without any significant literary or historical supporting data.
If you actually have any data and examples of Docetism represented in early Christianity, I could certainly be convinced it was a significant movement among the various early schisms, but I would have to have at least a minimum of supporting data to give me reason to believe it. If you have any significant early Historical Judeo-Christian literature from Docetists themselves or other ancient documents that indicate that early Judeo-Christianity was represented by or representative of Docetism, I would certainly be very, very interested to see it.
In any case Michael Way. I love the fact that you have some historical orientation and familiarity. Kuddos
Last edited by Clear lens; Yesterday at 03:54 PM..
Wow! So the earliest Christians apparently believed in a pre-mortal life!
I started a thread a while back called, "The Life Before in Literature and the Scriptures" in which I proposed the idea of a pre-mortal existence. Of course, I was the only one who believed in such a thing. Would you mind posting more about this topic on that thread? It would be much appreciated.
Hi @KATZPUR
I only have a minute and I haven’t looked at your thread yet. But I will.
When you say “life”, Are you speaking of the existence of the SPIRITS of mankind existing before mortality or are you referring to the ancient Talmudic Jewish doctrine that this earth is simply one of many and that there were other earths created before this one? Can you clarify?
REGARDING WHETHER MY STATEMENT IN THE OPENING POST WAS CORRECT
Clear said in the O.P. : Genesis 1:26-27 says “And God said, Let us make man according to our image, and according to our likeness; and let them control the fishes of the sea, and the winged creatures of the heaven, and the cattle, and all the earth, and all the reptiles , those crawling upon the earth.
Presumably God could have created the body of man in another shape and appearance but instead, he chose to create the body of Adam in Gods own appearance and similitude.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Base12
Are you sure your statement is correct? I see the phrase 'our image' in the verse you quoted. Obviously, there is more than one image being referenced in Genesis 1:26. Thus, it was not just God's own appearance and similitude that shaped Man.
Hi @BASE12
Yes, reviewing my question, it is the statement/question I meant to make and I was speaking from the historical Judeo-Christian context that Adam was created in the image of God the Father.
Last edited by Clear lens; Yesterday at 05:19 PM..
If you actually have any data and examples of Docetism represented in early Christianity, I could certainly be convinced it was a significant movement among the various early schisms, but I would have to have at least a minimum of supporting data to give me reason to believe it.
In any case Michael Way. I love the fact that you have some historical orientation and familiarity. Kuddos
Docetism was one belief of Gnosticism.
Quote:
Docetism was unequivocally rejected at the First Council of Nicaea in 325 and is regarded as heretical by the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, Armenian Apostolic Church, Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church,[10] and many Protestant denominations that accept and hold to the statements of these early church councils, such as Reformed Baptists, Reformed Christians, and all Trinitarian Christians.
Definitions
Docetism is broadly defined as the heretical teaching that claims that Jesus' body was either absent or illusory. The term 'docetic' is rather nebulous. Two varieties were widely known. In one version, as in Marcionism, Christ was so divine that he could not have been human, since God lacked a material body, which therefore could not physically suffer. Jesus only appeared to be a flesh-and-blood man; his body was a phantasm. Other groups who were accused of docetism held that Jesus was a man in the flesh, but Christ was a separate entity who entered Jesus' body in the form of a dove at his baptism, empowered him to perform miracles, and abandoned him upon his death on the cross.
Docetism became more fully developed as an important doctrinal position of Gnosticism, a religious dualist system of belief arising in the 2nd century AD which held that matter was evil and the spirit good and claimed that salvation was attained only through esoteric knowledge, or gnosis.
The heresy developed from speculations about the imperfection or essential impurity of matter. More thoroughgoing Docetists asserted that Christ was born without any participation of matter and that all the acts and sufferings of his life, including the Crucifixion, were mere appearances. They consequently denied Christ’s Resurrection and Ascension into heaven. Milder Docetists attributed to Christ an ethereal and heavenly body but disagreed on the degree to which it shared the real actions and sufferings of Christ. Docetism was attacked by all opponents of Gnosticism, especially by Bishop Ignatius of Antioch in the 2nd century.
The Gnostic Saviour, therefore, is entirely different from the Christian one. For the Gnostic Saviour does not save. Gnosticism lacks the idea of atonement. There is no sin to be atoned for, except ignorance be that sin. Nor does the Saviour in any sense benefit the human race by vicarious sufferings. Nor, finally, does he immediately and actively affect any individual human soul by the power of grace or draw it to God. He was a teacher, he once brought into the world the truth, which alone can save. As a flame sets naphtha on fire, so the Saviour's light ignites predisposed souls moving down the stream of time. Of a real Saviour who with love human and Divine seeks out sinners to save them, Gnosticism knows nothing.
The Gnostic Saviour has no human nature, he is an æon, not a man; he only seemed a man, as the three Angels who visited Abraham seemed to be men. (For a detailed exposition see DOCETAE.)
The last words of the aged St. Paul in his First Epistle to Timothy are usually taken as referring to Gnosticism, which is described as "Profane novelties of words and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called [antitheseis tes pseudonomou gnoseos — the antitheses of so-called Gnosis] which some professing have erred concerning the faith". Most probably St. Paul's use of the terms pleroma, the æon of this world, the archon of the power of the air, in Ephesians and Colossians, was suggested by the abuse of these terms by the Gnostics. Other allusions to Gnosticism in the New Testament are possible, but cannot be proven, such as Titus 3:9; 1 Timothy 4:3; 1 John 4:1-3.
The first anti-Gnostic writer was St. Justin Martyr (d. c. 165). His "Syntagma" (Syntagma kata pason ton gegenemenon aireseon), long thought lost, is substantially contained in the "Libellus adv. omn. haeres.", usually attached to Tertullian's "De Praescriptione"; such at least is the thesis of J. Kunze (1894) which is largely accepted. Of St. Justin's anti-Gnostic treatise on the Resurrection (Peri anastaseos) considerable fragments are extant in Methodius' "Dialogue on the Resurrection" and in St. John Damascene's "Sacra Parellela".
St. Justin's "Comendium against Marcion", quoted by St. Irenæus (IV.6.2 and V.26.2), is possibly identical with his Syntagma".
Immediately after St. Justin, Miltiades, a Christian philosopher of Asia Minor, is mentioned by Tertullian and Hippolytus (Against the Valentinians 5, and Eusebius, Church History V.28) as having combated the Gnostics and especially the Valentinians. His writings are lost.
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