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Arguy1973 that was a good post.
I don't drink, my choice also. I grew up with non-drinking parents and yet one of my bothers became an alcoholic. I'm not really against drinking and being responsible.
The Bible says that "wine make a mockery of a person." but many drank wine as a beverage which I feel is all right. Proverbs says, "take a little wine for the stomach" that was the only verse my grand father could quote.
In this country many drink to get drunk and the motive is very different. The Bible says that "man looks on the outside but God looks on the heart." I think when it comes to drinking that God know the motive we have to drink. It is to cloud the issues of our life, to cover our feelings and problems, to just not think at all. Do we get in a car and endanger all of us. I think we need to go to God with our problems and not try to cover them with drinking, food, activites or what ever. I guess it is all part of just being human.
A good book called, The Road Less Traveled, starts with the line, "Life is difficult" and so it is....
I have no problem with individuals who drink moderately. I choose not to drink.
But my question is why does one want to drink?
I just know I love the Lord Jesus and in my life I hope I can and discern to choose to do all that which pleases Him. Not myself or anyone else do I want to please.
So the way I see it, it is the conscience of the individual whose chooses to do or not to do about a lot of things.
I don't know if that brother/sister next to me in what I might be doing could be causing him/her to stumble. So even if my conscience says it's ok, what about the one next to me?
Some people their conscience does not condemn it and yet some it does....
So where does one truly draw the line in if it is wrong or right?
If I'm not sure about something, for example the drinking go to the scripture and seek God for the answer. So what does the scripture say?
Romans 14:21
It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
1 Corinthians 8:13 (NASB)
Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble I will never eat meat again, so I will not cause my brother to stumble.
2 Corinthians 6:3
Giving no cause for offense in anything, so that the ministry will not be discredited.
And the Gentiles exhorted to take heed of giving offense in therir use of indifferent things:
Many wish for peace, and talk loudly for it, who do not follow the things that make for peace. Meekness, humility, self-denial, and love, make for peace. We cannot edify one another, while quarrelling and contending. Many, for meat and drink, destroy the work of God in themselves; nothing more destroys the soul than pampering and pleasing the flesh, and fulfilling the lusts of it; so others are hurt, by wilful offence given. Lawful things may be done unlawfully, by giving offence to brethren. This takes in all indifferent things, whereby a brother is drawn into sin or trouble; or has his graces, his comforts, or his resolutions weakened. Hast thou faith? It is meant of knowledge and clearness as to our Christian liberty. Enjoy the comfort of it, but do not trouble others by a wrong use of it. Nor may we act against a doubting conscience. How excellent are the blessings of Christ's kingdom, which consists not in outward rites and ceremonies, but in righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost! How preferable is the service of God to all other services! and in serving him we are not called to live and die to ourselves, but unto Christ, whose we are, and whom we ought to serve.
Quote:
Though some are weak, and others are strong, yet all must agree not to live to themselves. No one who has given up his name to Christ, is allowedly a self-seeker; that is against true Christianity. The business of our lives is not to please ourselves, but to please God. That is true Christianity, which makes Christ all in all. Though Christians are of different strength, capacities, and practices in lesser things, yet they are all the Lord's; all are looking and serving, and
approving themselves to Christ. He is Lord of those that are living, to rule them; of those that are dead, to revive them, and raise them up. Christians should not judge or despise one another, because both the one and the other must shortly give an account. A believing regard to the judgment of the great day, would silence rash judgings. Let every man search his own heart and life; he that is strict in judging and humbling himself, will not be apt to judge and despise his brother. We must take heed of saying or doing things which may cause others to stumble or to fall. The one signifies a lesser, the other a greater degree of offence; that which may be an occasion of grief or of guilt to our brother. (Ro 14:14-18)
Please do not take this as a personal attack, but if we were to take the above verse literally (which is funny because there are threads out there questioning this very action) then we would not "eat meat" as well as not drink wine.
And if we take, "to do anything by which your brother stumbles", emphasis on anything, where would we stop?
Should we not drive, because we might cause someone to speed?
Should we not speak, because we might cause someone to lie, gossip, curse?
etc., etc., etc.
I think that we have to be "responsible" for our actions. I consume alcoholic beverages. I drink because I like the taste, not because I am looking to get drunk. However, my mother is an alcoholic, I do not drink when she is around. I also would not serve liquor to a minor or to someone that I knew had a drinking problem. And like BigT, if you invited me to your home and I knew that you did not approve of drinking, I would not come bearing a bottle of wine.
The 'emphasis' on 'anything' is the italics that is in the NASB, not mine. It is there to show that it was not in the original text. :-)
Again, we have to use all scriptures together, not just the ones that appeal to us most. I used the one above because it was to answer a question that was posted in another thread.
Your last paragraph pretty well summerizes it. :-)
1. I think everyone understands its not a good idea to drink.. to get drunk. Have I done that in the past 6 months. Yep. Felt horrible the next day. I don't drink like I did in college (not even close).
2. I think everyone understands that drinking a cold one in front of an alcoholic is just a stupid thing to do. Its outside the bounds of what a normal person would do (in my opinion). I'm not sure I need scripture to tell me not to do that. Its like me referencing scripture to see if the sky is blue. I know its blue.. but do I really need scripture to say yes.. it is indeed blue.
3. When I drink now.. its because I like the taste of it. It goes well with food and makes everything taste better. I don't drink and drive. I don't drink to drown my sorrows away. I like the taste of a well brewed beer.
I am prompted to post this because of a question a poster asked about the drinking of wine being wrong. The scripture is Romans 14.21 "It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles."
The drinking of wine is evidently not condemned, unless it leads to drunkenness, or if it causes a brother to stumble.
Therefore, many of us do not drink wine at all.
1. Because of the possibility of becoming drunk.
2. So there is no chance of our causing a brother to stumble.
3. So we do not cause the unbeliever to judge us wrongly.
Please let all follow-ups remain civil ! :-)
I drink a beer occasionally...i love it. I don't drink until I'm drunk and never have. I am an especial fan of asian and mexican beers...kirin ichiban and dos equis amber-so yummy. Most of my friends enjoy a beer or a mixed drink sometimes as well and we are all Christians. BUT if someone in our company is offended by the drinking of alcohol, we simply don't do it around them. I've had friends who were going to have a cash bar at their wedding and opted against it for that reason. My grandfather and uncle are/were alcoholics so any alcohol was a potential temptation for them to regress. Therefore, they would not drink a single drop and due to that, we didnt drink when we were around them.
Love is the motivating factor for these decisions as well as the desire not to stumble.
Do you think that the words we speak and the motivation of our hearts when we speak them can also fall under this category???
For instance, saying something "tongue in cheek" that is meant to gender strife... is that causing someone to stumble? How about little digs or inside jokes ??? ... Would that also be included as wrong behavior and wrong motivation meant to cause harm to someone???
"It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles."
Love is the motivating factor for these decisions...
Last edited by World Citizen; 06-13-2008 at 09:54 AM..
"It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles."
Arguy, that scripture does not say "it is forbidden" . It says "it is good" not to do those things. :-)
It is your choice whether you do, or not. And it is speaking of causing a Christian brother to stumble.
I prefer to not be guilty of that, if possible. :-)
What someone else does, does not cause me to stumble ( at least I don't think so), but it may cause some other Christian to do so, espacially if they go against their conscience, and do what the other person is doing.
It may boil down to what one can do with a clear conscience.
Our consciences are molded by our knowledge and understanding of the scriptures.
I wasnt speaking against your thread Marion, but at the thought that some (no one in particular) use that verse to look down on others (I didnt say anyone nor mean anyone here) but ive saw it happen. I think it does boil down to what one does with a clear conscience before God.
Ephesians 5:1-2 "Follow God's example in everything you do, because you are His dear children. Live a life filled with love for others, following the example of Christ, who loved you and gave Himself as a sacrifice to take way your sins. And God was pleased because that sacrifice was like sweet perfume to Him".
I don't judge anyone who drinks, that is not my job. For ME, I think it's wrong. I believe because I am a Christian people should see a difference in the way I live and they way I talk. I did drink before I became a Christian and never did again afterwards. And I sure wouldn't want to have drink my hand when Jesus returns.
Ephesians 5:1-2 "Follow God's example in everything you do, because you are His dear children. Live a life filled with love for others, following the example of Christ, who loved you and gave Himself as a sacrifice to take way your sins. And God was pleased because that sacrifice was like sweet perfume to Him".
I don't judge anyone who drinks, that is not my job. For ME, I think it's wrong. I believe because I am a Christian people should see a difference in the way I live and they way I talk. I did drink before I became a Christian and never did again afterwards. And I sure wouldn't want to have drink my hand when Jesus returns.
I don't 'judge' anyone for drinking, if judging them means condemning them, but if they drink to excess the scriptures judge them.
I too, would drink before I became a Christian. The first family that I married into were drinkers. My DH of 51 years, and I, have never been drinkers since we got married, even before we became Christians. I saw too much ungodly behavior when I was amongst drinkers. :-(
I do not even like the taste of most alcoholic beverages.
I could not say this around some of my friends, but I do not think Jesus would be offended it I had a glass of wine in my hand when He came. I think of what Paul said to Timothy...to take a little wine for his stomach's sake, and his many infirmities.
I can't find it now, but I remember a scripture about older women drinking wine, and it wasn't a condemnation. Also Titus 2.3 says older women are not to be " enslaved to much wine". A similar statement is made about deacons. I 1st Timothy 3.8.
I don't 'judge' anyone for drinking, if judging them means condemning them, but if they drink to excess the scriptures judge them.
I too, would drink before I became a Christian. The first family that I married into were drinkers. My DH of 51 years, and I, have never been drinkers since we got married, even before we became Christians. I saw too much ungodly behavior when I was amongst drinkers. :-(
I do not even like the taste of most alcoholic beverages.
I could not say this around some of my friends, but I do not think Jesus would be offended it I had a glass of wine in my hand when He came. I think of what Paul said to Timothy...to take a little wine for his stomach's sake, and his many infirmities.
I can't find it now, but I remember a scripture about older women drinking wine, and it wasn't a condemnation. Also Titus 2.3 says older women are not to be " enslaved to much wine". A similar statement is made about deacons. I 1st Timothy 3.8.
I misread the above post and withdraw my question. I think I was getting a little confused here! Maybe I should just butt out.
Last edited by alicenevada; 06-13-2008 at 11:36 AM..
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