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He has no pity on the wicked.
Read Luke 16: 19-31 , there is a real place of torment
Don't you mean no pity on the rich?
The rich man and Lazarus:
The main problem with an understanding that Jesus is simply referring to what happens to 'lost' and 'saved' people in the afterlife in this parable is that NO MENTION is made about faith in God at all - only that the one man was rich and had a good life and the other was poor and had a terrible life.
The next big clue that it is a parable and not a literal story is the term used: 'Hades' which is the best Greek could do for the Hebrew 'Sheol' (AKA: the grave, the unseen, ie: the generic state of death)
Throughout scripture it is taught that there is no consciousness, thought, knowledge, blessing or torment in Sheol/Hades EXCEPT in this one parable spoken by Jesus (Rich man and Lazarus). The idea that upon death a person immediately goes into conscious non-ending torments/blessings originated in 'pagan' mythology.
The idea of 'two compartments in Sheol' and 'instant reward/punishment' theory did not originally come from the Hebrews or their scriptures at all, but the Pharisees had such a doctrine - probably picked up while the Jews were in captivity to pagan nations. In the Pharisees version - the rich, who were (in their eyes) obviously blessed by God would be carried by angels (also un-scriptural) to their reward in the 'bosom of Abraham' (also a one time mention) while the poor beggars who were (in their eyes) obviously cursed by God were sent into instant fiery torments.
Jesus simply turned their OWN false doctrine upside down on them to show their hypocrisy.
So how did the church ever get to it's current doctrine of 'hell fire'?
Easy. The KJV translators substituted the english word 'hell' in the place of the word 'Gehenna' - and *presto* we have a fiery 'hell'.
But.... the judgment of Gehenna was never mentioned to the Gentiles even once and was never used by any apostle of Christ except once by James, referring to the tongue. So how could it possibly denote the place of non-ending torment for the 'lost' of the world? Peter never mentioned it, nor Paul, nor John. In the entire book of acts - no mention of 'hell' at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnOurWay2MO
Those of you who believe all will be saved must not have children.
Could a futurist please answer a question(s) for me.
(KJV) Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
What is the lake of fire?
When did this passage occur? Is it yet to occur? And if yes, please supply supporting scripture, with explanation.
Thanks.
I will do my best, I do not label myself as anything other than a follower of Christ though I do not see all of Revelation as in the future, but anyway....
In Revelation 21:8 we see that the lake of fire is the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone and it is where those who are not found written in the book of life, death, hell, satan, the beast, the false prophet, demons, and all things wicked/opposing God will be thrown into.
I see it as yet to occur. If you read chapter 21 where we read about all things new and that there will be no more death and He will wipe every tear etc. Those have yet to occur (I know you will probably twist this because I have read the preterist explanation of this elsewhere but I do not agree with it).
Also, vs.7 says He that overcometh shall inherit all things, we are still overcoming the things in this present age.
From my understanding of the preterist view nothing is taken literally in scripture, however many of us do so there really is no debating it until either God opens one of our eyes or we put pride aside.
The main problem with an understanding that Jesus is simply referring to what happens to 'lost' and 'saved' people in the afterlife in this parable is that NO MENTION is made about faith in God at all - only that the one man was rich and had a good life and the other was poor and had a terrible life.
The next big clue that it is a parable and not a literal story is the term used: 'Hades' which is the best Greek could do for the Hebrew 'Sheol' (AKA: the grave, the unseen, ie: the generic state of death)
Throughout scripture it is taught that there is no consciousness, thought, knowledge, blessing or torment in Sheol/Hades EXCEPT in this one parable spoken by Jesus (Rich man and Lazarus). The idea that upon death a person immediately goes into conscious non-ending torments/blessings originated in 'pagan' mythology.
The idea of 'two compartments in Sheol' and 'instant reward/punishment' theory did not originally come from the Hebrews or their scriptures at all, but the Pharisees had such a doctrine - probably picked up while the Jews were in captivity to pagan nations. In the Pharisees version - the rich, who were (in their eyes) obviously blessed by God would be carried by angels (also un-scriptural) to their reward in the 'bosom of Abraham' (also a one time mention) while the poor beggars who were (in their eyes) obviously cursed by God were sent into instant fiery torments.
Jesus simply turned their OWN false doctrine upside down on them to show their hypocrisy.
So how did the church ever get to it's current doctrine of 'hell fire'?
Easy. The KJV translators substituted the english word 'hell' in the place of the word 'Gehenna' - and *presto* we have a fiery 'hell'.
But.... the judgment of Gehenna was never mentioned to the Gentiles even once and was never used by any apostle of Christ except once by James, referring to the tongue. So how could it possibly denote the place of non-ending torment for the 'lost' of the world? Peter never mentioned it, nor Paul, nor John. In the entire book of acts - no mention of 'hell' at all.
What the hell is that supposed to mean
blessings,
- Byron
I was'nt referring to no pity on the rich. I watched the youtube video you posted about the same info about the rich man and Lazarus. I do not see it as being a parable.
("What the hell is that supposed to mean")
Byron, is that anyway to talk to a sister in Christ or any lady, or anyone for that matter? I forgive you
I figured people would "get" what I was saying but I guess not. You did'nt answer if you have children or not.
Since having children my whole view of who God is to us has changed.
If someone did the most detestible things to your child and there was no punishment given to that person, where is the justice?
I believe God is just and He will recompense for what His foes have done to His children.
Byron, is that anyway to talk to a sister in Christ or any lady, or anyone for that matter? I forgive you
oooops, My apologies I was trying to be funny (I guess not)
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnOurWay2MO
I figured people would "get" what I was saying but I guess not. You did'nt answer if you have children or not.
Yes, two daughters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnOurWay2MO
Since having children my whole view of who God is to us has changed.
If someone did the most detestible things to your child and there was no punishment given to that person, where is the justice?
But we're talking about a belief in un-ending punishment. Plus, what if the abuser of your children asked for forgiveness and repented? Would God forgive and would you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnOurWay2MO
I believe God is just and He will recompense for what His foes have done to His children.
I almost killed a man who made advances to my (then) 10 year old daughter. No problem with relating to wanting justice. So do you think only really really really bad people go to the LOF? Do you believe no amount of punishment is enough? Or is it just enough then over? What are you saying?
Well, it was a parable in a string of 5 (if I remember correctly) parables. So, what's your explanation for all the scriptures saying there is no thought or knowledge in Sheol? Are you aware of the verses I'm speaking of? Why would Jesus speak in opposition to what the former scriptures said about the state of the dead?
oooops, My apologies I was trying to be funny (I guess not)
Yes, two daughters.
But we're talking about a belief in un-ending punishment. Plus, what if the abuser of your children asked for forgiveness and repented? Would God forgive and would you?
I almost killed a man who made advances to my (then) 10 year old daughter. No problem with relating to wanting justice. So do you think only really really really bad people go to the LOF? Do you believe no amount of punishment is enough? Or is it just enough then over? What are you saying?
blessings,
- Byron
Is a person who is lost truly repentive unless they are seeking the Lord for repentence? Usually people are only sorry because they got caught, they had to go to jail etc. Otherwise the natural man will want to run, hide, do anything to find a way out of it.
Part of the gospel message is repent repent repent, now is the time to repent. Where does it say we can repent after we die? We die and then comes the judgment.
I would forgive because we are called to forgive others and we are told not to recompense but God promises to on our behalf.
"Really really really bad people" LOL, um no.
The Bible says those whose names were not found written in the book of life.
So you believe everyones name is written? Even Lucifer's name should be in there based on your beliefs.
Our ways are not God's ways, we cannot understand everything at this time. When we see Him we shall be like Him and we will understand everything. I don't know what exactly the punishment is or how much God thinks enough is. I just know He has called all men and we all have a choice to make NOW.
Is a person who is lost truly repentive unless they are seeking the Lord for repentence? Usually people are only sorry because they got caught, they had to go to jail etc. Otherwise the natural man will want to run, hide, do anything to find a way out of it.
Part of the gospel message is repent repent repent, now is the time to repent. Where does it say we can repent after we die? We die and then comes the judgment.
I would forgive because we are called to forgive others and we are told not to recompense but God promises to on our behalf.
Long answer, but I'll take that as a 'yes'. So you get the sweet justice as long as the person doesn't find God first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnOurWay2MO
"Really really really bad people" LOL, um no.
The Bible says those whose names were not found written in the book of life.
So you believe everyones name is written? Even Lucifer's name should be in there based on your beliefs.
Obviously not everyone's name is in the book of life. By the way, "lucifer" is a fable/myth - not the name of satan. You can study that out if you wish. It's fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnOurWay2MO
Our ways are not God's ways, we cannot understand everything at this time. When we see Him we shall be like Him and we will understand everything. I don't know what exactly the punishment is or how much God thinks enough is. I just know He has called all men and we all have a choice to make NOW.
Revelations 17:8 Those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.
If you want to follow the book of life thing through, you need to drop the free-choice thing and go w/Calvinism
Could a futurist please answer a question(s) for me.
(KJV) Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
What is the lake of fire?
When did this passage occur? Is it yet to occur? And if yes, please supply supporting scripture, with explanation.
Thanks.
The "Lake of Fire" is merely an illustration or picture of total annilhilation, where there appears to be no hope of future existance ever. That's why Death & Hell (Grave) are said to be removed perminently from mankind. At some future point, mankind will never experience either of these things. It would seem also that the Devil and his demons will be done away with forever just after that, unlike the story promoted throughout history of an Eternal Hellfire full of lost souls and run by Satan (Fantasy-Devil with horns & Pitchfork) & demons for all eternity, we can see here that the Bible itself shows those ideas are a lie as these things are to be destroyed permanently. No logical reason whatsoever to keep them around eternally.
You'll also notice that the "False Prophet & Scarlet Coloured Wild Beast" are thrown there first. They seem to be something that is present now and that has to be done away with first before Death, Hell, Satan & Demons are put out of action perminently. So things on Earth it seems are in need of being dealt with first of all before we see thing latter things happening.
There was also another thread which dealt with something called "Babylon the Great" (Harlot or Prostitute)who rides the "Scarlet Coloured Wild Beast" and this "Scarlet Wild Beast" at some point is said to turn on her and kill her. So this is yet another event that has to occur before the "False Prophet & Scarlet Wild Beast" are thrown into that illustrative "Lake of Fire".
Now there were a couple of threads where people were trying to say that this "Babylon the Great" was actually the United States of American. However, the was a book ("The Two Babylons" , just do a simple Google on the man) written by an Alexander Hyslop , (a Methodist Minister) of the early 1800s who identified it as being of a religious nature. To be more to the direct, he pointed directly towards the Catholic Church in particular as being that Great Harlot. He gave all sorts of pagan doctrinal reasons to show where the Catholic Church receives it's beliefs and origins. However, what he failed to realize in so doing, Protestant religion also gets all their major doctrine and belief system from the Catholic church as well. Well to make the long story short, it appears most did'nt like that info being introduced into the thread, so they opened up other/newer threads to direct attention the way they see fit. Whatever!
Does'nt matter really. The point is, there is an historical event of this "Scarlet Wild Beast" turning on the Harlot that rides it's back and killing her totally before this same beast goes into the "Lake of Fire". I don't know about most of you, but I do find those future events to be interesting to say the least.
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I do not see all of Revelation as in the future, but anyway.... 
