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Could a futurist please answer a question(s) for me.
(KJV) Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
What is the lake of fire?
When did this passage occur? Is it yet to occur? And if yes, please supply supporting scripture, with explanation.
Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnOurWay2MO
I will do my best, I do not label myself as anything other than a follower of Christ though I do not see all of Revelation as in the future, but anyway....
In Revelation 21:8 we see that the lake of fire is the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone and it is where those who are not found written in the book of life, death, hell, satan, the beast, the false prophet, demons, and all things wicked/opposing God will be thrown into.
I see it as yet to occur. If you read chapter 21 where we read about all things new and that there will be no more death and He will wipe every tear etc. Those have yet to occur (I know you will probably twist this because I have read the preterist explanation of this elsewhere but I do not agree with it).
Also, vs.7 says He that overcometh shall inherit all things, we are still overcoming the things in this present age.
From my understanding of the preterist view nothing is taken literally in scripture, however many of us do so there really is no debating it until either God opens one of our eyes or we put pride aside.
Hope I answered your question
Thanks
Do you believe in Hell? A place of eternal punishment?
I'm reading what you asked and I ask you to also read it again also and I would like to get back to you on it as it is getting very late here, and I do not like to twist anything.
Put yourself back in time of the Jews and the Old Covenant. What "age" might that be. Are we now not in the new age of the New Covenant? We for sure are not in any kind of an age like the Jews were, thats for sure. Are these not the "all things new" you mentioned above.
I asked you about "death" and the lake of fire".
1 Timothy 1:9-10 who has saved us and called [us] with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, [who] has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
If we please examine the above, we can see that we are called to a holy calling. Not of works. I think the OT is often described as works. As we read further in the context of the above we see that it is grace which we are now saved through Christ. And it appears at this point "death has been abolished.
Please meditate on these scriptures and I would like you to also think about this.
Matthew 5:17-18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.".
Has heaven and earth passed away? Has the Old Covenant been done away with? If you believe the Old Covenant has passed away, then you must believe "heaven and earth" has passed away also.
[quote=firstborn888;4580909]Long answer, but I'll take that as a 'yes'. So you get the sweet justice as long as the person doesn't find God first.
(((You don't answer my questions so I will leave our conversation here. I do the best I can to answer people but if they cannot do the same there is no discussion. They can't find Him after they die in their sins)))
Obviously not everyone's name is in the book of life. By the way, "lucifer" is a fable/myth - not the name of satan. You can study that out if you wish. It's fun.
(((Well according to you everyone's name would have to be ,
So now God's word is fables? OY! Whatever you want to call him, you know who I was talking about
Isa 14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!)))
Revelations 17:8 Those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.
If you want to follow the book of life thing through, you need to drop the free-choice thing and go w/Calvinism
(((Well sure they will marvel, the last shall be first and the first shall be last. There will be many who's names are written that we would be shocked by and vice versa. The book is complete, He already knows everyone in it, hence from the foundation of the world.
No, I don't NEED to believe anything other than what God tells me to, like I said before I don't label myself as anything other than a follower of Christ. Rom 12:3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. )))
The "Lake of Fire" is merely an illustration or picture of total annilhilation, where there appears to be no hope of future existance ever. That's why Death & Hell (Grave) are said to be removed perminently from mankind. At some future point, mankind will never experience either of these things. It would seem also that the Devil and his demons will be done away with forever just after that, unlike the story promoted throughout history of an Eternal Hellfire full of lost souls and run by Satan (Fantasy-Devil with horns & Pitchfork) & demons for all eternity, we can see here that the Bible itself shows those ideas are a lie as these things are to be destroyed permanently. No logical reason whatsoever to keep them around eternally.
You'll also notice that the "False Prophet & Scarlet Coloured Wild Beast" are thrown there first. They seem to be something that is present now and that has to be done away with first before Death, Hell, Satan & Demons are put out of action perminently. So things on Earth it seems are in need of being dealt with first of all before we see thing latter things happening.
There was also another thread which dealt with something called "Babylon the Great" (Harlot or Prostitute)who rides the "Scarlet Coloured Wild Beast" and this "Scarlet Wild Beast" at some point is said to turn on her and kill her. So this is yet another event that has to occur before the "False Prophet & Scarlet Wild Beast" are thrown into that illustrative "Lake of Fire".
Now there were a couple of threads where people were trying to say that this "Babylon the Great" was actually the United States of American. However, the was a book ("The Two Babylons" , just do a simple Google on the man) written by an Alexander Hyslop , (a Methodist Minister) of the early 1800s who identified it as being of a religious nature. To be more to the direct, he pointed directly towards the Catholic Church in particular as being that Great Harlot. He gave all sorts of pagan doctrinal reasons to show where the Catholic Church receives it's beliefs and origins. However, what he failed to realize in so doing, Protestant religion also gets all their major doctrine and belief system from the Catholic church as well. Well to make the long story short, it appears most did'nt like that info being introduced into the thread, so they opened up other/newer threads to direct attention the way they see fit. Whatever!
Does'nt matter really. The point is, there is an historical event of this "Scarlet Wild Beast" turning on the Harlot that rides it's back and killing her totally before this same beast goes into the "Lake of Fire". I don't know about most of you, but I do find those future events to be interesting to say the least.
Good points, but no scripture. Check out youtube and watch Bibleortradition videos. Talks about Babylon being the Roman Catholic system as well. Very interesting and once you compare it with scripture I don't see how anyone can deny it, other than being blinded to it.
Another reason why I know Jesus has not come yet because Babylon is still here.
Do you believe in Hell? A place of eternal punishment?
Yes, it says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Well it obviously is'nt eternal if it is thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Put yourself back in time of the Jews and the Old Covenant. What "age" might that be. Are we now not in the new age of the New Covenant? We for sure are not in any kind of an age like the Jews were, thats for sure. Are these not the "all things new" you mentioned above.
Well I certainly don't see all things new like God's word describes it. Do you realize the suffering of our brethren in other countries in these days that have not been in all of history. We do not live it therefore we do not see it, but it is real and is happening. We are ignorant over here in this bottle fed nation (and yours as well).
Please meditate on these scriptures and I would like you to also think about this.
Matthew 5:17-18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.".
Has heaven and earth passed away? Has the Old Covenant been done away with? If you believe the Old Covenant has passed away, then you must believe "heaven and earth" has passed away also.
It does not say old covenant in that verse, now does it? What law is being referred to here?
There were ceremonial laws, civil laws, and moral laws. We can see here that He is talking about His moral law that He put into place with the ten commandments, which are still in effect today. He obeyed the moral law completely but not the others.
Last I checked earth was still here
When we leave the simplicity of Christ and stop coming to Him as a child we get confused and follow other men's teachings and not His.
And that's all I have to say about that. There is no edification being done in continueing the discussion.
Proverbs 10:28 "The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish".
Proverbs 11:7 "When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish; and the hope of unjust men perisheth".
Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake; some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt".
Matthew 25:41-42, 46 "Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungered, and ye gave Me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave Me no drink. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal".
Mark 9:43-44 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut, it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched; where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".
Luke 3:17 "Whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor; and will gather the wheat into His garner; but the chaff He will burn with fire unquenchable".
Luke 16:26 "And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you, cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence".
John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him".
2 Thes 1:7-9 "And to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power".
Jude 6, 7, 13 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains, under darkness, unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorra, and the cities about them, in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of everlasting fire. Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever".
Rev 14:9-11 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name".
Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever".
But there is scarcely any end to the multitude of passages that teach directly, or by inference, both the fact and the endlessness of the future punishment of the wicked.
Long answer, but I'll take that as a 'yes'. So you get the sweet justice as long as the person doesn't find God first.
(((You don't answer my questions so I will leave our conversation here. I do the best I can to answer people but if they cannot do the same there is no discussion. They can't find Him after they die in their sins)))
Obviously not everyone's name is in the book of life. By the way, "lucifer" is a fable/myth - not the name of satan. You can study that out if you wish. It's fun.
(((Well according to you everyone's name would have to be ,
So now God's word is fables? OY! Whatever you want to call him, you know who I was talking about
Isa 14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!)))
Isa. 14:12 is addressing a Babylonian King in metaphoric language. The name 'Lucifer' was added to the mix in the KJV.
When read in context it becomes clear that these verses are not at all referring to Satan. They are about Babylon and Tyre. As is clearly shown when one reads the prophecy. For example:
Isa 14:4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended! (NIV)
Ezek 28:2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "`In the pride of your heart you say, "I am a god; I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas." But you are a man and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god. (NIV)
One of the problems some people have when it comes to these verses is that they have a hard time distinguishing poetic language from literal language. So when they see something like:
Ezek 28:14-15 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. (NIV)
They jump from the subject previously identified (that being Tyre) to a literalistic who was a guardian cherub. They then think the answer must be Satan. But then when their literalistic approach falls apart in the next verse they return to the original subject matter (Tyre).
Ezek 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)
It no longer works to well to say that Satan was expelled from heaven because of his widespread trade and violence. When you use context as your primary guide to interpreting the Bible it is impossible to make these verses refer to Satan. Also there is no Biblical statements which identify Satan as a guardian cherub, that is produced when the reader inserts their preconceived idea into the verse.
There is much more, but I don't want to take pages on this.
BTW: Didn't mean to not answer the question about post-mortem repentance. You had answered my forgiveness question with some other questions. I thought your questions were rhetorical in nature and you were just using them to make a point along with your answer. My apologies for that.
If you still want to ditch me as a conversation partner I understand. If not - would love to discuss
Isa. 14:12 is addressing a Babylonian King in metaphoric language. The name 'Lucifer' was added to the mix in the KJV.
When read in context it becomes clear that these verses are not at all referring to Satan. They are about Babylon and Tyre. As is clearly shown when one reads the prophecy. For example:
Isa 14:4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended! (NIV)
Ezek 28:2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "`In the pride of your heart you say, "I am a god; I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas." But you are a man and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god. (NIV)
One of the problems some people have when it comes to these verses is that they have a hard time distinguishing poetic language from literal language. So when they see something like:
Ezek 28:14-15 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. (NIV)
They jump from the subject previously identified (that being Tyre) to a literalistic who was a guardian cherub. They then think the answer must be Satan. But then when their literalistic approach falls apart in the next verse they return to the original subject matter (Tyre).
Ezek 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)
It no longer works to well to say that Satan was expelled from heaven because of his widespread trade and violence. When you use context as your primary guide to interpreting the Bible it is impossible to make these verses refer to Satan. Also there is no Biblical statements which identify Satan as a guardian cherub, that is produced when the reader inserts their preconceived idea into the verse.
There is much more, but I don't want to take pages on this.
BTW: Didn't mean to not answer the question about post-mortem repentance. You had answered my forgiveness question with some other questions. I thought your questions were rhetorical in nature and you were just using them to make a point along with your answer. My apologies for that.
If you still want to ditch me as a conversation partner I understand. If not - would love to discuss
blessings,
Byron
I take that as the kings were as satan, wanting to exalt themselves above the Lord as He did.
How did you come to know that the KJV added the name Lucifer?
I take that as the kings were as satan, wanting to exalt themselves above the Lord as He did.
How did you come to know that the KJV added the name Lucifer?
Well, if you look at the context and what's being said it actually has nothing to do with satan at all. That's my point.
The Hebrew says "Heylel" AKA Helel son of Shahar
The KJV followed Jerome's lead from the Vulgate - an early-5th-century translation of the Bible into Latin from Greek (note: NOT from the original Hebrew). In Jerome's translation - "Lucifer" occurs in Isaiah 14:12-14 as a translation of the Greek word heosphorus ("dawn-bearer"), an epithet of Venus. The actual Hebrew text says הילל בן שחר (heilel ben-schahar), which means "Helel son of Shahar."
Helel was a Babylonian / Canaanite god - the son of another Babylonian / Canaanite god named Shahar.
Helel was the god of the morning star (Venus) and his father was Shahar, god of the dawn. Some translations of Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning!" American Standard Version translating Hebrew Helel as "day-star" and the Hebrew word Ben as son and the Hebrew word Shahar as "of the morning."
In Isaiah, this title is specifically used, in a prophetic vision, referring the king of Babylon's pride and to illustrate his eventual fate by referencing Babylon's own mythological accounts of the planet Venus' fall from grace from among the gods.
These old testament passages absolutely do not teach that Satan is a fallen angel because they are not even talking about Satan. It's just centuries of Christian tradition (non-biblical) helping the obvious meanings to get totally lost in the translation.
Blessings,
- Byron
PS thanks for being grace-full and not ditching me
Well, if you look at the context and what's being said it actually has nothing to do with satan at all. That's my point.
The Hebrew says "Heylel" AKA Helel son of Shahar
The KJV followed Jerome's lead from the Vulgate - an early-5th-century translation of the Bible into Latin from Greek (note: NOT from the original Hebrew). In Jerome's translation - "Lucifer" occurs in Isaiah 14:12-14 as a translation of the Greek word heosphorus ("dawn-bearer"), an epithet of Venus. The actual Hebrew text says הילל בן שחר (heilel ben-schahar), which means "Helel son of Shahar."
Helel was a Babylonian / Canaanite god - the son of another Babylonian / Canaanite god named Shahar.
Helel was the god of the morning star (Venus) and his father was Shahar, god of the dawn. Some translations of Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning!" American Standard Version translating Hebrew Helel as "day-star" and the Hebrew word Ben as son and the Hebrew word Shahar as "of the morning."
In Isaiah, this title is specifically used, in a prophetic vision, referring the king of Babylon's pride and to illustrate his eventual fate by referencing Babylon's own mythological accounts of the planet Venus' fall from grace from among the gods.
These old testament passages absolutely do not teach that Satan is a fallen angel because they are not even talking about Satan. It's just centuries of Christian tradition (non-biblical) helping the obvious meanings to get totally lost in the translation.
Blessings,
- Byron
PS thanks for being grace-full and not ditching me
From your studies what does the Bible teach satan is?
I see you quote from the NIV, which from my understanding was translated from the Alexandrian manuscripts, which were corrupt.
Maybe we should start a thread on Bible versions, or maybe there already is one.
No problem , sometimes it's hard to tell a person's intentions online.
Good points, but no scripture. Check out youtube and watch Bibleortradition videos. Talks about Babylon being the Roman Catholic system as well. Very interesting and once you compare it with scripture I don't see how anyone can deny it, other than being blinded to it.
Another reason why I know Jesus has not come yet because Babylon is still here.
Well, probably I should have added the link where I have used those scriptures, however when I discussed "Babylon The Great" before , not mant wanted to listen.
The book that Alexander Hislop (I believe a Methodist Minister from Scotland) wrote was back in 1858, although originally it was published earlier in 1853 as a pamplet. He was right on in the things he researched as far as the Pagan corruption of the Catholic church. However, Hislop failed to realize that in all his research to slam the Catholic Church, (which again, was dead on the money and outstanding as far as revealed truth) he was also condeming his own Protestant faith or Church. Why ?????????? Because every single Protestant Church gets it's origins of belief from the Catholic church. The same doctrines, Holidays, etc exist in them as well. The differences were political and most doctrinal differences for the most part were simply doctored up or dressed up with a little window dressing to give the appearance of being unique.
I don't want to get off topic as this is a discussion on the Second Death. But you have to add the fact that two of the subjects mentiones being thrown into the "Lake of Fire" are Death & Hell which cannot be tormented or suffer. Death being a state of inactivity or opposite of life and Hell (Sheol - Hades = Grave) only, these are not living enties. I've already previously shown where these are simple put permanently out of existance. The "False Prophet & Scarlet Coloured Wild Beast" are also illustrative of I believe something to do with governments and their propaganda machines. They likewaise won't be tortured and burned forever and ever, just merely put out of commission forever. Of course to the average die hard Southern Bible Belt fire and brimstoner won't care about the truth of the matter anyway. Their hatred of others is far more intense than any HellFire could ever hope to be.
On the subject of Babylon however, one of the things brought out in the research was the comparison of the fall of ancient Babylon to the modern day Babylon. Persian Cyrus defeated Babylon by drying up the waters of the Euphrates by daming the river upstream and changing it's course. The city was protected by an elaborate canal and moat system and network.
The Babylon of Revelation (which appears to be all Religion) is said to have it's own waters which act as a defensive strategy as well. Look here:
Revelation 17:1 "And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked to me, saying unto me, Come hither, I will shew unto thee the judgement of the great *****(Harlot) that sitteth on many waters"
So the question is, "What are these waters all about ? Well lookie here:
Revelation 17:15 , "And he saith unto me, "The waters which thou sawest, where the Harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and peoples, and tougues". Is there any doubt that Church attendance has drastically fallen off and in some cases around the globe like europe vaished completely. Babylon the Great or Religion's protection has always been the masses of humankind who have always supported her. No one or anything ever dare make a move for fear of public outcry and bloodshed. However, times are now different. It will be interesting where it moves on from here.
It appears this Wild Beast has to carry out this destruction of Babylon the Great before being cast off into the "Lake of Fire", which as we already know will be it's eternal non-existance of ever being alive ever again.
I could go on, but I don't want this to be a Babylon the Great thread.
Cheers
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I do not see all of Revelation as in the future, but anyway.... 
, 
