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I meant the earthly person(s) at the top of the denominational hierarchy. How do they get there?
These persons in the NT were Paul, the Apostles and the elders in Jerusalem. God put Paul and the Apostles in place and I would venture that Paul and the Apostles collectively put the elders in Jerusalem in place.
The Roman Catholic and Anglican churches believe that there has been a continuous line of succession from Paul and the Apostles to their current church hierarchy- each Apostle chose someone to take his place upon death and then each successor chose his successor until the current Pope/Archbishop of Canterbury and all of their under-bishops were installed.
But once any link in this line of succession turned against God by teaching or otherwise condoning false doctrine, the chain of apostolic succession was broken. As it stands now I don’t know how God dealt with this situation. Apostolic authority may not exist today, but I don’t know what, if anything, has been put in its place.
flaja,What if who they have to answer to are corrupted? I came from good IFB church is San Diego. They had to kick out the pastor about 25 years ago for child molesting and he went to prison. So, their church by-laws must have something in them where the pastor doesn't rule no matter what. The pastor that took over was just one of the members there and he was just supposed to fill in until they found another. This man has such integrity that the congregation voted him in and he's been there ever since. This man won't take a raise. He finally took a new car the elders bought after 25 years. Nothing fancy just a ford taurus. He is such a godly man too. I went there for 4 years. He is so unmaterialistic. No cable t.v. for him. Like I said before, when you find a good pastor you have a good church. That was a 2000 member church, People came from all over San Diego to be a part of that. 300 people at the same time would profess Christ as their Savior and even more than that on the spanish services. It was exciting. All this the Lord did without any modern day marketeering. So there are some good churches out there still. Jesus said when I return will I find faith. I think He is implying there won't be very much true faith when He returns.
If you are not a Christian, why are you participating in this discussion? What possible difference could a church’s polity make to you?
Desiring to be Christ-like (Christian) and being one, are not the same.
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Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Who did He say this to?
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If you are a Christian, the Holy Spirit expects you to be an active participant in leading people to Christ.
If you are a "Christian" and God calls you to do this, then i agree. Unfortunately the mess the churches are in, is due to people taking this honor upon themselves.
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your questions #1-4 are based on assumption.....Im not sure I know what your trying to get at....
what exactly are you asking???
you assume where "IBF"(whatever that means) independant churchs, pastors come from, or how they were determined.
you also assume they do not have an authority to answer to.....
wow your good at assuming.....
your questions #1-4 are based on assumption.....[/quote]
What assumptions did I make? I am simply comparing independent churches with the model presented by the NT in regards to the council of Jerusalem, local church leaders and the ordination of pastors/elders for local congregations.
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Im not sure I know what your trying to get at....
what exactly are you asking???
My questions are straight-forward. I want to know whether or not independent churches have any Biblical foundation. By touting your own independent church as Biblical, you are assuming that independent churches can be Biblical, but you have yet to present any evidence from the Bible that they can be.
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you assume where "IBF"(whatever that means) independant churchs, pastors come from, or how they were determined.
What have I assumed? IFB (Independent Fundamental Baptist) churches exist. I didn’t have to assume anything about where they came from because where they came from is not really the issue. The fact that they do exist is the issue at hand. Regardless of where they came from, I want to know if they (and independent churches in general) have any Biblical support.
According to the NT local congregations looked to Paul, the Apostles and their designees to ordain their pastors/elders. Independent churches do this themselves without any regard for outside earthly authority. Strike 1 for independent churches.
According to the NT local congregations looked to Paul, the Apostles and the elders in Jerusalem to determine what Christian doctrine is. Independent churches decide what their doctrine is on their own without regard for any outside earthly authority. Strike 2 for independent churches.
According to the NT local congregations always had multiple elders and no single person was put in charge of any local congregation. Independent churches (as far as my personal experience with them goes) usually have a single pastor and he often has absolute control over the congregation. Strike 3 for independent churches.
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you also assume they do not have an authority to answer to.....
I did not say that. Ultimately they, as we all do, have to answer to God because God has ultimate authority. My question is whether or not they should have to answer to an earthly authority the way NT congregations had to answer to Paul, the Apostles and the elders in Jerusalem.
I gather that you believe that your church can never do any wrong and you bristle whenever someone suggests that your church is not right with God. I am detecting a belligerence in your replies that is not becoming of a Christian. Instead of presenting any evidence that your position is right or trying to reason with me with brotherly love and understanding when I disagree with you, you get hostile and for all practical purpose you question my motive and denigrate my intelligence. The more people like you that I meet, the more I believe that independent churches are un-Christian.
These persons in the NT were Paul, the Apostles and the elders in Jerusalem. God put Paul and the Apostles in place and I would venture that Paul and the Apostles collectively put the elders in Jerusalem in place.
The Roman Catholic and Anglican churches believe that there has been a continuous line of succession from Paul and the Apostles to their current church hierarchy- each Apostle chose someone to take his place upon death and then each successor chose his successor until the current Pope/Archbishop of Canterbury and all of their under-bishops were installed.
But once any link in this line of succession turned against God by teaching or otherwise condoning false doctrine, the chain of apostolic succession was broken. As it stands now I don’t know how God dealt with this situation. Apostolic authority may not exist today, but I don’t know what, if anything, has been put in its place.
The LDS church believes that this Apostolic Authority was restored beginning with Joseph Smith.
(And no, I am not a Mormon, i'm just sharing what another faith believes).
These persons in the NT were Paul, the Apostles and the elders in Jerusalem. God put Paul and the Apostles in place and I would venture that Paul and the Apostles collectively put the elders in Jerusalem in place.
The Roman Catholic and Anglican churches believe that there has been a continuous line of succession from Paul and the Apostles to their current church hierarchy- each Apostle chose someone to take his place upon death and then each successor chose his successor until the current Pope/Archbishop of Canterbury and all of their under-bishops were installed.
But once any link in this line of succession turned against God by teaching or otherwise condoning false doctrine, the chain of apostolic succession was broken. As it stands now I don’t know how God dealt with this situation. Apostolic authority may not exist today, but I don’t know what, if anything, has been put in its place.
Paul? Try Peter:
KJV Matthew 16:13-19
13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare'a Philip'pi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?"
14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli'jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys(Authority) of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Peter, you make the rules, bind=forbid, loose=permit)
Peter was given the Authority of Jesus's Church. Jesus also said that the gate of hell (powers of death) will not prevail against it. NOTHING will destroy it so the Authority is still alive and well, unless of course you think Jesus was a liar.
Admittedly, Paul was a very important player in the early Church, but he and the other Apostles are ALWAYS listed after Peter if they were mentioned together. The writings of the Early Church Fathers also support that the Church's Authority was held in Rome by Peter.
Oh, and the Catholic Church compiled the Bible in the late 4th Century, if you must know. And it wasn't the modified excerpted King James version.
"We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all."
These persons in the NT were Paul, the Apostles and the elders in Jerusalem. God put Paul and the Apostles in place and I would venture that Paul and the Apostles collectively put the elders in Jerusalem in place.
Good points. Paul and the Apostles were used to start the church, and they did ordain elders. However, I believe the "Apostolic" role is now over.. elders were put in place, and they ordained other "elders", and so on. These elders or bishops were called out from among the congregation... but none of them fit the role that a pastor fits today, which is an unbiblical role (self-promoted leader hired to preach to a congregation).
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But once any link in this line of succession turned against God by teaching or otherwise condoning false doctrine, the chain of apostolic succession was broken.
I agree. It's fine to have an unbroken line of "apostolic succession" but this is useless if there is not an unbroken line of true doctrine and Holy-Spirit led direction.
So back to your first question: No, independant churches really are not biblical. New "Apostles" have no authority to promote themself or put themself in power.. the "Church" cannot be started.. it must continue unadulterated thru time, from the NT era until today (as Jesus said it would). Not traced by name, not by denomination, but by evidence through history of continuing to follow the Holy Spirit's guidance. By remaining the New Testament Church.
It will be K-12 but each grade will have five 9-week academic terms. The entire K-12 curriculum will have a total of 60 academic terms, which would be the equivalent of 15 regular (36 week) school years. The middle/high school curriculum will be modified to do away with the repetition of courses that the current school system has. This modification, together with the longer school year, will allow students to take courses that will prepare them to take at least 8 AP exams, which would be enough to earn them roughly 2 years of college credit by the time they graduate from high school.
Good points. Paul and the Apostles were used to start the church, and they did ordain elders. However, I believe the "Apostolic" role is now over.. elders were put in place, and they ordained other "elders", and so on. These elders or bishops were called out from among the congregation... but none of them fit the role that a pastor fits today, which is an unbiblical role (self-promoted leader hired to preach to a congregation).
I agree. It's fine to have an unbroken line of "apostolic succession" but this is useless if there is not an unbroken line of true doctrine and Holy-Spirit led direction.
So back to your first question: No, independant churches really are not biblical. New "Apostles" have no authority to promote themself or put themself in power.. the "Church" cannot be started.. it must continue unadulterated thru time, from the NT era until today (as Jesus said it would). Not traced by name, not by denomination, but by evidence through history of continuing to follow the Holy Spirit's guidance. By remaining the New Testament Church.
You say "I believe....". This is where you go wrong. Without the Authority given by Jesus, you cannot make critical claims like that. Only the Church and her appointed successor can do that. You make statements with NO Authority, as does the rest of the Protestant world. Hence, the 32,000+ fragments of Protestantism where each faction started with a MAN saying saying "I disagree. I believe that...".
You say "I believe....". This is where you go wrong. Without the Authority given by Jesus, you cannot make critical claims like that. Only the Church and her appointed successor can do that. You make statements with NO Authority, as does the rest of the Protestant world. Hence, the 32,000+ fragments of Protestantism where each faction started with a MAN saying saying "I disagree. I believe that...".
You have to go further back than that, the dis information was from the beginning of the church.
Every time we justify sin and sway from the teachings of Christ, we are out of the straight and narrow way.
The politicos took control of information and indoctrination at the formation of the Roman Church... Nicea.
It has been held to the level of the seeker ever since. We each choose the level of truth we wish to abide in, we are the temples of the Living God. We are each one judged and read as individual sons and daughters of God, memberships and man made authorities mean nothing.
godspeed,
freedom
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