Not all Christians are going to Heaven (Matthew, God, Lord)
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Despite the overwhelming consensus that God codemns homosexuality, the more I learn about it the less and less I feel that he does, and I am grateful to him for pushing the issue as it is one I intend to explore further. I keep going back to things I have stated before and links posted.
IF you are told that what you are doing is a sin, what other recourse is there than to change from committing that sin? It is cheap grace to intentionally sin and ask forgiveness.
I feel bad he left the Christianity forum because there are Christians [well, you reject us as Christians too ] who would accept him as he is and not count him as flawed in that respect. I had no issue with the homosexuality but did with the lack of an expressed need for God - ie that the solution was all inside of him - that is very gnostic thinking as well [he mentioned those rejceted books of the Bible too and I think there is good reason they were declared heretical very early in the Church].
I was certainly part of it by suggesting this thread was about not all "Christians" go to heaven and that another thread would be more appropraite - but don't think it would have made a lot of difference - because of the lack of acceptence of who he is as a human being was overpowering.
I know how I feel being told everything about the Bible the way I understand it is "wrong"- I am just not going to leave here because if one person does not leave because they realize all people who proclaim Christ are not of the same cloth, it may help them from turning away from the faith.
You know, grannynancy, if you would look over my many posts both to people who've visited this board and about homosexuality and other sexual issues you would realize that I have never said it's alright with God.
I have no problem with christians ... just mean ones.
If you knew me you would know that my heart is pure and my motives, as well.
I've been shown a great deal of mercy in my life by God.... accepting me into His family and then even calling me and using me. I have ministered in some very hard places -- and to people that you may not feel worthy of God's love - but I've honestly seen miracles. God has given me a real empathy for lost people.
Along the way, I was allowed to see a 25 year heroin addict set free and healed... someone who was scheduled for a liver transplant from all the drugs they'd done. They were dying. It's an awesome thing to see someone like that when they come to know the Lord and are on fire... to see their families get saved and healed.. When something like that happens, other people who knew them are also convinced of God's power to set people free and are convinced that the God who raised Jesus from the dead is still working miracles today.
I can tell you that over the past 30 years, that God has done an incredible work in my heart that was like stone... I doubt that you'd want to go through the fire that it's taken to bring me to where I am today.
God bless you.
WC
BTW - Most unsaved and/or backslidden people are going to be angry at God. They are not going to come here and declare their need for a Savior.
Someone with his personal background has even more reason to feel that way, don't you think?
Last edited by World Citizen; 10-23-2008 at 05:13 PM..
So you say you're a Christian. What defines you as a Christian? Are you a cultural Christian? A cultural Christian by definition is one who lives by the standards of the culture around him/her. A cultural Christian says we should love everyone and forget about sin because that is not loving. Are cultural Christians truly Christians? That is between the person and God. However you must ask youself, "Have I been born again? Have I received Jesus into my heart and life and am I living a holy and righteous life before God?"
If you have truly been born again then by all means you will go to heaven and live eternally with the Father. Our Creator. Many will say that it's not fair or it's narrow minded to think in this manner. The words I've written here are found in the Bible and are the truth of God.
Many will stand before God and say, "But I did this and that in your name," and He will say "Away from me you evildoers, I never knew you." What an awful and horrible day that will be for men/women who hear those words.
Are you a Christian? The only true Christian is one who has received Christ as Savior. The rest are Christians in name only.
But doesnt God forgive those that want to be forgiven?
The general impression you give is that you define yourself as much by whom you DESPISE as by whom you profess to love. Very sad.
I have followed threads such as this one long enough to realise how important it is for you and and your friends to have a common enemy to take swipes at. In this instance it is gay people, as your cheap remark (above) demonstrates. I don't think you should be proud of such flippant taunts, and I'll you why.
If you ask me, I will send you some harrowing pictures taken recently in Iran which show two innocent-looking teenage boys being roughly hung in a public arena. They look so young, they are barely out of childhood, and the tears on their cheeks show their terror. One of them hadn't even grown into the shoes that were dangling from his feet.
And what was their crime? They were unlucky enough, apparently, to be reported to the religious police for an 'indecent' sexual act together. (not specified). They were 16 and 17 years old!!!
Now correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe that had you been present at such shocking barbarity you might have been forced to re-evaluate your hateful prejudices, and realised where they can lead.
Don't tell me that this was done by a different religion to yours, that makes not the slightest difference to my argument. These children were executed in the name of the SAME god as you worship, the god of the Koran being none other than the god of the Bible, the god of Abraham, if you know anything about your sister faith. The same laws were being acted on.
No doubt you will want to refute this, saying that you don't approve of going so far as to actually murder gay people -- at least I hope you (and your friend NorthSouth) don't.
Therefore, the next time I read this thread, I will be overjoyed too see you have modified your attitude a little, especially as you say you are a mother yourself. All you have to do is put your feet in the shoes of the mothers of the two boys that were so mercilessly dragged away to be hung before their lives had really started. Would you find it in your heart to tell these two traumatised women that it was the WILL OF GOD? -- Probably not. But then, you are only his messenger, as you say.
I rest my case.
ps. With the planet we live on already groaning under the weight of 6 billion people, many of them starving, I feel rather disinclined to apologise for not 'reproducing' - under the circumstances. Evolution has always produced a certain percentage of gay people throughout the centuries, and will continue to do so regularly whether you like it or not, (at least it's a sensible way of population-control).
So I suggest that you stop this pointless fretting over the whole thing, get on with your life, and allow us gay people to get on with ours. We may not swell the population figures, but we do have a unique contribution to make to society, as any less prejudiced person would admit. So to hang or stone us all would only leave the world a drearier place. But then, I suppose you would immediately start looking for some other minority to harass.
Think this through before you post your next clever insult.
I didn't realize I had friends here first of all, so I actually had to go back and read threads to see what you were referring to, which I still didn't find any where I was finding enemies to take swipes at. My comment was in response to another, and was pointing out the irony in evolutionary theories. Scientific fact: a homosexual person cannot reproduce with another. Does this mean I hate homosexuals, no. I do have friends who are gay, and DO love them as God loves me. I don't agree with it, but that should not be confused with hatred. I believe it is a sin, as are MANY things that I do, have done, and will do. Jesus forgives me of my sin, and forgives ALL sin. My Bible says many things are sin, but never instructs me to hate any person. I DON'T believe in evolution, which was the point I was driving at with that comment. IF evolution were true, then the science would change allowing reproduction to occur between two beings of the same sex. No where in nature has this happened. THAT was the point I was making.
When my children feel that I am not listening to them, sometimes they yell...PLEASE POINT US TO THE SCRIPTURE THAT EXPLAINS HOW A PERSON IS TO GO ABOUT BEING "BORN AGAIN".
Thank you...
<><
WEATHEROLOGIST hope this helps it's the ONLY recipe I could find................ A heaping cup of kindness 2 cups of love and caring 1 cup of understanding 1 cup of joyful sharing A level cup of patience 1 cup of thoughtful insight 1 cup of gracious listening 1 cup of sweet forgiveness
Mix all ingredients together and toss in smiles and laughter. Serve to all who enter and be blessed with love forever. " The Fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Galatians 5:22-23.
I am merely quoting from the Bible. I include myself wholeheartedly in making sure I am living a holy and righteous life before God. I too am a sinner who was saved by grace and am most definitely working out my salvation with fear and trembling as another poster stated.
Too bad you can't seem to conquer the sin of arrogance, satisfied as you are in yourself.
I learned to read the written word when I was four. And a man who boasts that he is saved not only presumes to know the mind of God, but claims to have superior knowledge over me.
I acknowledge Christ is my savior. I put my trust in God. But I do not claim to have his dispensation and forgiveness for my manifold sins. For that is presumption, my friend.
Too bad you can't seem to conquer the sin of arrogance, satisfied as you are in yourself.
And where is my arrogance? My OP states that just because a person calls himself a Christian does not entitle him to a ticket into heaven. The only way is through salvation through Jesus.
Quote:
I learned to read the written word when I was four. And a man who boasts that he is saved not only presumes to know the mind of God, but claims to have superior knowledge over me.
I acknowledge Christ is my savior. I put my trust in God. But I do not claim to have his dispensation and forgiveness for my manifold sins. For that is presumption, my friend.
I know I am saved because of what the Word of God tells me. I never stated anything about dispensation and forgiveness by manifold sins. Sounds like a lot of Catholic doctrine there.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8-9
include myself wholeheartedly in making sure I am living a holy and righteous life before God.
Possibly this part of your post sounded a little like this
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
You say I am a sinner and then say I make sure I live a holy and righteous life. You may not mean it that way but it can sound like you are paying God back for your salvation by your deeds.
What I have learnt is that it is totally Gods mercy we have anything.
Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
Last edited by Meerkat2; 11-05-2008 at 06:39 PM..
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] who would accept him as he is and not count him as flawed in that respect. I had no issue with the homosexuality but did with the lack of an expressed need for God - ie that the solution was all inside of him - that is very gnostic thinking as well [he mentioned those rejceted books of the Bible too and I think there is good reason they were declared heretical very early in the Church].
I too am saved by God's grace.
