100 arguments against the deity of Jesus (tradition, Gospels, verses, prophets)
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Jesus Christ is not a son of God. He is 'the Son of God'. It is a title of His deity and is language of accomodation within the plan of salvation for man, in which Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, agreed to become a man and submit Himself to the will of the First Person of the Trinity, the author of the plan.
The phrase 'sons of God' bene-ha-Elohim in the Hebrew in the Old Testament refers to angels.
Job 1:6 'Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
Job 2:1 'Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 38:7 'When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? This was before Lucifer rebelled against God.
Genesis 6:2 'that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.
Compare Genesis 6:2 with 1 Peter 3:19 'In which also He (Jesus Christ) went and made proclamation to the spirits (angels- the sons of God in Genesis 6:2) now in prison (Tartarus), 20] who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Compare with Jude 6 'And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has dept in eternal bonds of darkness (in Tartarus) for the judgment of the great day (when they will be thrown into the lake of fire). Compare with 2 Peter 2:4 'For if God did not spare the angels that sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5] and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly,'
In 1 Peter 3:19, Jesus, after He went to the cross, and perhaps after His resurrection, went into Tartarus to proclaim to the group of fallen angels imprisoned there and out of touch with what was going on in the angellic conflict, that He had prevailed and gone to the cross, strategically defeating Satan. They had chosen the losing side.
In the New Testament, church-age believers are called sons of God. John 1:12 'But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in his name.
Gal 3:26 'For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.' By adoption: Romans 8:15 '...but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, ''Abba! Father!''
Never knew the day will come when I can comfortably sign off on your explanation. Happily, today is that day! Kudos
The key is the word begotten . . . translate it in greek and hebrew . . . Jesus is a diety, because he is the ONLY begotten (NOT created) Son . . .
how is that different . . . he was brought forth from God the Father . . . the only person made of "God's Stuff" . . angels, prophets, people, apostles, non of them are begotten or dieties . .
The key is the word begotten . . . translate it in greek and hebrew . . . Jesus is a diety, because he is the ONLY begotten (NOT created) Son . . .
how is that different . . . he was brought forth from God the Father . . . the only person made of "God's Stuff" . . angels, prophets, people, apostles, non of them are begotten or dieties . .
Begotten, brought forth . . . interesting study.
So, God loved himself and was pleased with himself??
Matthew 3:17. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son (me), whom I love; with him (me) I am well pleased."
Luke 9:35. A voice came from the cloud, saying, "This is my Son (me), whom I have chosen; listen to him (me)."
Matthew 12:18. Here is my servant (me) whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him (me), and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
John 1:1. In the beginning was God and the God was with the God and the God was God.
So, God loved himself and was pleased with himself??
I hope and believe that God loves himself and is pleased with himself ... I hope and believe that he does not hate himself and is not displeased with himself, or we are all up the creek without a paddle, because if he is not even pleased with himself and if he does not even love himself, how can he ever love and be pleased with his creation?
I hope and believe that God loves himself and is pleased with himself ... I hope and believe that he does not hate himself and is not displeased with himself, or we are all up the creek without a paddle, because if he is not even pleased with himself and if he does not even love himself, how can he ever love and be pleased with his creation?
I'm just saying, this is how this verse would read then: Matthew 3:17. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son (me), whom I love; with him (me) I am well pleased."
I'm just saying, this is how this verse would read then: Matthew 3:17. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son (me), whom I love; with him (me) I am well pleased."
Only if you want to see it that way.
It is God who works within us to will and do what pleases him. So it is really not us God is pleased with, but his own handiwork within us.
I believe Christ was a mode of the manifestation of the invisible God to his creation, just as the "holy spirit"/"spirit of Christ" is another mode of the ineffable Gods manifestation towards his creation.
Do you really believe that one day you will meet God, and it wont be Jesus who you are seeing?
Don't you know that whenever you see the father, you will be seeing Jesus?
Isn't that what he told the apostles when they asked him to show them the father?
Try this ...
Jhn 14:8-10
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Now replace the words "the Father" with the word "God" ...
Jhn 14:8-10
Philip said, "Lord, show us God and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen God. How can you say, 'Show us God'? Don't you believe that I am in God, and that God is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is God, living in me, who is doing his work.
When they asked Jesus to show them the father(God), why do you suppose that Jesus asked them in reply "don't you know me (who i am) ... " ?
Notice how Jesus never once referred to himself as the messiah? He always left it up to others to say it ... There is a very Good reason for that ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-27-2010 at 11:25 PM..
It is God who works within us to will and do what pleases him. So it is really not us God is pleased with, but his own handiwork within us.
I believe Christ was a mode of the manifestation of the invisible God to his creation, just as the "holy spirit"/"spirit of Christ" is another mode of the ineffable Gods manifestation towards his creation.
Do you really believe that one day you will meet God, and it wont be Jesus who you are seeing?
Don't you know that whenever you see the father, you will be seeing Jesus?
Isn't that what he told the apostles when they asked him to show them the father?
Try this ...
Jhn 14:8-10
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Now replace the words "the Father" with the word "God" ...
Jhn 14:8-10
Philip said, "Lord, show us God and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen God. How can you say, 'Show us God'? Don't you believe that I am in God, and that God is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is God, living in me, who is doing his work.
When they asked Jesus to show the the father(God), why do you suppose that Jesus asked them in reply "don't you know me (who i am) ... " ?
Notice how Jesus never once referred to himself as the messiah? He always left it up to others to say it ... There is a very Good reason for that ...
Ironmaw, I believe the Bible was messed with. A lot. There are honestly more verses that contradict the trinity than agree with it, and the trinity has caused more confusion around the globe than almost any other belief in Christianity (besides eternal torment). The trinity has always been a pagan belief, even before the start of Christianity. Pagans love their trinities. God is not the author of confusion, as the Bible says, and God made us logical curious beings for a reason.
I believe Jesus was the representative for his father. His father is obviously Spirit, and we cannot see him in the flesh, but Jesus was the perfect man who received God's spirit after his baptism, but until then>>>>>>>Matthew 3:16. As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
I don't care if I sound like a cult to anybody reading this post. I'm not interested in organized religion and I'm not interested in conforming to any set of beliefs. I just want the truth. That's what I've always wanted. I've been that way since I was little, and that passion for the truth has not gone away. Not in the slightest.
(Sorry if I'm causing you to bunch up your shoulders. I know you didn't really want to discuss this.)
1 Tim 3:16
and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety -- God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory!
Who was taken Up in Glory? God(A.K.A Jesus) ...
Jhn 1:1 & 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning ... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only
Do you believe Jesus is the living word of God? Do you believe that the word of God is god? Then why don't your believe that Jesus is God?
As Christ Said to Thomas, "Stop doubting and believe" ...
Ironmaw, I believe the Bible was messed with. A lot. There are honestly more verses that contradict the trinity than agree with it, and the trinity has caused more confusion around the globe than almost any other belief in Christianity (besides eternal torment). God is not the author of confusion, as the Bible says, and God made us logical curious beings for a reason.
I believe Jesus was the representative for his father. His father is obviously Spirit, and we cannot see him in the flesh, but Jesus was the perfect man who received God's spirit after his baptism, but until then>>>>>>>Matthew 3:16. As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
I don't care if I sound like a cult to anybody reading this post. I'm not interested in organized religion and I'm not interested in conforming to any set of beliefs. I just want the truth. That's what I've always wanted.
Remember ...
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, and it is the honor of Kings to search out a matter.
Let me ask you a question and search your heart for the answer ... If you discovered for a fact, without needing to have faith, that Jesus is God, how would that make you feel?
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