Contradiction or Not? Taken from another thread.

[little elmer]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

I have a question to all those who don't believe in hell. Why is that people who don't believe a Loving, Just God would not send anyyone to hell except Hitler, Saddam Hussein and company? and the ones who don't believe in any kind of hell, How is God being just or showing His love by condemning unbelievers to the same fate as their tormentor? the many muslims killed by Saddam will receive the same fate as Hussein? How is that just?

If you're asking if there's a degree of punishment that should be - or will be - greater than the next, my reply is certainly. As one lake is greater than the next, so will it require more pumping to empty it.

I do believe that Christ is the "second Adam" and that in his own order, all will be made alive. That being said, I think it's futile to try to naturally interpret what the KJV (or any other translation) said can't be done.

As I've said before, I believe that if an unbeliever read the Bible, he would see the doctrine of eternal torment. He would read and comprehend with the natural mind, reason with his human intellect, and thus, arrive at a carnal conclusion. Does this itself not tell us that the truth must be deeper, wider, and higher? The truth must be beyond the discernment of the natural, revealed only in the Holy Spirit. We have just read Paul boldly declare by the Spirit that the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit, nor can he. The Word of God has been handled with such casual arrogance, with so little supplication to it’s writer as to the revelation of what He has written, that it is high time we all repented and acknowledged that the truth is only discernable in the Spirit – and thus, we must humble ourselves before our Maker and ask for aid in seeking out the sublime wonders of His Word.

[ShanaBrown]

Hi Shana,
Thank you for reading my post. It grew much longer than I really wanted.
The OP was about the apparent conflict:
Why would Jesus need to preach the gospel to those who had already died?
What would be the reason for doing this if their eternal fate was already sealed and they were already in hell?

So I thought it necessary to define “hell”, because it has several meanings.

I did quote Psalm 68:18 and I reading it, I learned that He apparently preached to everyone in Hades – not just those in Abraham’s Bosom.
So, you’ll find that in the post.
I don’t know if their fate was sealed or if they believed and were allowed to leave with Him, but apparently the gospel was preached to them as well.

I would think their fate was already sealed, because they were rebellious.
Else, why have separate places in Sheol?
Why have a Hell at all?
Why have Abarham’s Bosom? (because Paradise had not been prepared until the crucifixion)
Why not just instant Heaven for everyone?

Hi, Richio, thank you for sharing. My belief on this differs from yours in that I don’t believe that there are separate places in Sheol. I believe that Sheol (NT word Hades from what I understand) refers to the state of the dead or the condition of the dead. It is defined as the "unseen state""Sheol." is the Hebrew word in the OT.Hades" comes from from the Greek verb "horao." "Horao" means "I am seeing." The Greeks then prefixed the word with "a" (alpha) which negates "to see" thus coming up with the noun "Hades" meaning "unseen." "Sheol" and "Hades" mean "unseen."

Jonah 2:2 "Out of the belly of hell (Sheol) cried I." Verse 1:17 tells us he was "in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights." Was Jonah in a literal hell or in the belly of a fish? If "Sheol" is translated "unseen" we have no problem. Jonah was in the "belly of the fish" and was "unseen." and he was in the belly for 3 days and 3 nights. Jesus was also in Hades, the unseen state, the grave, until He was resurrected.

I don’t believe people are living now in Sheol or Hades, but I believe that when individuals die, they die, their spirits returning to God. I don’t believe that the spirits are aware or alert. When a person's body is dead, he or she is dead. Some ref:

Ecc. 3:20
Psalm 146:4
Psalm 22:15
1 Thess. 4:13-18
Acts 7:60
Psalm 6:5
Ecc. 9:4-7

I believe that Gehenna is a literal place on the earth and being cast into Gehenna denoted punishment and disgrace for those individuals. I do not believe that it refers to an eternal hell. I do believe that individuals will experience hell as a result of the judgments of God and I believe that this is for their betterment, that it serves a higher purpose. The reason I believe this is because there are many scriptures which speak to the eventual restoration of all.

Jesus said: I AM the way. No one comes to the Father but through Me.

Another way of looking at the verse is that Jesus died for all people – even the rebellious.
I agree, that Jesus died for all people, and that no one comes to the Father but through Him.


While they live, they still have that choice. That is what Scripture seems to teach.

I believe that eventually all will willingly submit to Jesus. There are scriptures which speak of this. Some will choose Him in this lifetime and others will experience whatever it takes to remove all blinders and binders. They are said to be held captive and Jesus came to set the captives free.

As for Jerome, I just don’t follow the teachings of the Catholic Church.
(I was raised Catholic – even through confirmation)

I don’t follow the teachings of the Catholic church either. I shared because he is considered to be one of the early church leaders as were many others who spoke of the restoration of all. I though that this quote by him related to the original QP.

In several ways, I don’t follow the Protestants either.
I try to follow Scripture – particularly Jesus and Paul.

Same here, Richio J

Jesus – because he was (is) well… Jesus.
And Paul – because he understood the meaning of true circumcision.

Jesus didn’t teach that the rich man in torment would be purified and then let into Heaven.
"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'
Luke 16:31

I believe that the story of rich man and lazarus is a parable, not a literal description of what happens upon death. There are too many scriptures which speak of the dead being dead, or being in the grave. I believe that this was a story that many Jews were familiar with, that Jesus used to teach them about God's attitude towards the Jewish leaders and the Gentiles or the Jewish leaders and the lost sheep of Israel. Many Christians believe this and many hold to your perspective. I do believe that all individuals will eventually be subjected to the Lord so that God may be all in all (1 Cor. 15)

You didn’t elaborate on what your views are, so I can only speculate on the larger ramifications of the Rich man going to Heaven after living His whole life with money as his god
"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.
Matthew 6:24

Some have the notion that all people are ultimately saved.
That somehow the fires of Hell purify the soul.
‘Sort of a “purgatory” for the damned.
I do not know if this is your view, but it seems to be your view.
Purgatory is unscriptural, as it implies (almost stating uncatagorically) that the blood of Christ is not sufficient to save.
That Jesus was not holy enough, and so additional purification is required before entrance
to Heaven is granted.

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Romans 5:9,10

Likewise, the idea of purification by fire for sinners so they may be saved is unscriptural.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:2

Not everyone is saved in the end.
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15

If all are saved – with just a bit of purification, then Christ died for nothing.
Christians would who suffered for their faith would be fools.
And even Jesus Himself would have been a fool.

Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all,
that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt,
subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode,
He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them,
since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh,
are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
Jude 1:5-7

My belief is that all will be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ. (Colossians 1;19-20) We are the ones who need to be reconciled to God. We left Him, not vice versa. I believe that there is a purpose for the lake of fire/ the fire of God in that it will eventually result in the subjection of all to God. The idea of all being subjected to God is not a popular idea because it seems to take away the idea of free will. But 1 Corinthians 15 teaches that this will happen. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess/give praise/ give thanks to Him. What does this say about free will? I believe that many will experience a second death, but God’s goal is to become all in all. (1 Corinthians 15) God Himself is described as a consuming fire and if His goal is to become all in all, then I believe that He will accomplish this. If Jesus is to fill all things, including whoever may be in an eternal hell as many believe He will fill anyone who is there, so this lets me know that no one will suffer forever in an eternal hell. I believe that these are some of the scriptures which teach that the good news is for all.


Psalms 22:
27. All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28. For the kingdom is the LORD'S
And He rules over the nations.
29. All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive



Psalms 66
4. "All the earth will worship You,
And will sing praises to You;
They will sing praises to Your name." Selah

Psalms 68:18
You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives;
You have received gifts among men,
Even among the rebellious also, that the LORD God may dwell there


Isaiah 25:6-8
The LORD of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain;
A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow,
And refined, aged wine.
7. And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
8. He will swallow up death for all time,
And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces,
And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth;
For the LORD has spoken.


Isaiah 45:22-25
"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23. "I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24. "They will say of Me, `Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.'
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
25. "In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory."

Zephaniah 3
8 "Therefore wait for Me," declares the LORD,
"For the day when I rise up as a witness.
Indeed, My decision is to gather nations,
To assemble kingdoms,
To pour out on them My indignation,
All My burning anger;
For all the earth will be devoured
By the fire of My zeal.
9. "For then I will give to the peoples purified lips,
That all of them may call on the name of the LORD,
To serve Him shoulder to shoulder


John 1:1-9
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2. He was in the beginning with God.3. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.4. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.5. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.6. There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.7. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.8. He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.9. There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.



John 12:27-32
27. "Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, `Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour.28. "Father, glorify Your name." Then a voice came out of heaven: "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."29. So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "An angel has spoken to Him."30. Jesus answered and said, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes.31. "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.32. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."


Romans 8:18-22
18. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.19. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.20. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope/expectation (elpis) 21. that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.22. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.


1 Corinthians 15:16-28
16. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;17. and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.18. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.19. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.20. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.21. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.22. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.23. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,24. then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.25. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.26. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.27. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.28. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Colossians 1:15-20
15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.17. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.18. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.19. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,20. and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Ephesians 1: 5-10
"He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens, and things upon the earth."

Why would Jesus need to preach the gospel to those who had already died? What would be the reason for doing this if their eternal fate was already sealed and they were already in hell?

1 John 4:14
"And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has *sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."

*sent (apostello)= sent on a certain mission, sent on a certain business, employment

Many don't believe that Jesus will accomplish the mission that He was sent on. I and many others believe that He will. This is why I believe that the gospel was/is to be preached to the dead (in all aspects) really either figuratively or literally. God bless.




Thanks for sharing and God bless.

[Saurasenas]

Originally Posted by DayoftheLord

This statement right here from another thread is something we need to discuss because this is a perceived contradiction in the Bible by unbelievers. Why would Jesus need to preach the gospel to those who had already died? What would be the reason for doing this if their eternal fate was already sealed and they were already in hell?

I studied this years ago and can present you what I remember from that study. Apparently there was an ancient belief that upon his death Christ descended into the depths of the earth to proclaim his victory over sin and to collect Adam and those held in Abraham's boosom. There was also something involved with the devil and Beelzebub (prince of hell) but I can't remember all the details. I can't be certain which pseudo-gospel this belief is reflected in (I think the gospel of Nicodemus?). If you get the collection typically titled "The Lost Books of the Bible" you can find it yourself. Even though the book is not a true Gospel it shouldn't be ignored because there is historical and cultural significance, as with all the apocryphal books. There's really no contradiction, you have to take it all in context. Hope this helps a little, sorry I'm so rusty.

[Ilene Wright]

Originally Posted by Saurasenas

I studied this years ago and can present you what I remember from that study. Apparently there was an ancient belief that upon his death Christ descended into the depths of the earth to proclaim his victory over sin and to collect Adam and those held in Abraham's boosom. There was also something involved with the devil and Beelzebub (prince of hell) but I can't remember all the details. I can't be certain which pseudo-gospel this belief is reflected in (I think the gospel of Nicodemus?). If you get the collection typically titled "The Lost Books of the Bible" you can find it yourself. Even though the book is not a true Gospel it shouldn't be ignored because there is historical and cultural significance, as with all the apocryphal books. There's really no contradiction, you have to take it all in context. Hope this helps a little, sorry I'm so rusty.

Hello Saurasenas and welcome!! Actually, my original post was a question that I asked simply to get others thoughts on, to see if they matched up with mine. There is no right or wrong answer because we simply are not told in the Bible, but there are certainly way more plausible theories in my opinion than others. Below are my op and Fundamentalists answer to which I completely agree with.

Originally Posted by DayoftheLord

This statement right here from another thread is something we need to discuss because this is a perceived contradiction in the Bible by unbelievers. Why would Jesus need to preach the gospel to those who had already died? What would be the reason for doing this if their eternal fate was already sealed and they were already in hell?

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

ahhhh...I love this question and bare in mind no answer given here is heresy. I happen to believe that Jesus went to Hades not hell. Peter referred to people as "souls" and not "spirits" In the New Testament, the word "spirits" is used to describe angels or demons, not human beings. I believe the spirit beings to be fallen angels.
Let's go to (Jude 6) "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day."

What could these angels have done to be punished in such a manner? Well let's go back to Genesis 6:4-7 (that many people think we can't take it literally)
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil......"

Notice when God was grieved for creating men, after the bible referred to the "Nephilim" maybe it was a way for the demons to contaminate the bloodline so as to prevent the coming Messiah and that is why God saw man as wicked and was grieved because he had to destory them to purify the bloodline. God punished these fallen angels as stated (Jude 6) by chaining them Hades never to leave for their crime of mixing with daughters of men till the day of judgement.

Peter did not tell us what He proclaimed to these imprisoned spirits, but it could not be a message of redemption since angels cannot be saved. It was probably a declaration of victory over Satan and his hosts

Originally Posted by DayoftheLord

That's excellent Fundie!! A very reasonable and understandable explanation that I find to be the most plausible one. I wanted to hear what others thought about this, and to show that, like you said, it would not be heresy to speculate about this, but it is not something that anyone can possibly have the 100% correct answer to except God.

Just one of the many things in the Bible that are there for us to be able to exercise our imaginations, but not to cause confusion or to give license to some "man" to rewrite the whole Bible because he thinks he's the only one who has the answers. It cannot be a contradiction if we don't know the whole story!!