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So what you are saying is one can't appreciate esthetics without some deep rooted intuitive feeling for God ?
I am sorry I even bothered to respond to this thread. Some of you people just twist everything. It's almost pathological.
Good-Bye and thank you for making sure I never try to find any points of reference with a Christian again.
This forum has opened my eyes on American Christianity in ways which have quite frankly shocked me. I am actually thinking of leaving it together because I am not sure I can cope with the ridiculousness of it all.
Moose, I didn't mean to turn you off. No offence was intended
I felt compelled to point the inconsistency out.
And I asked a wild question about the lyrics of the choir and the answer seems to be a wild jackpot.
I'll write a well thought response, later, when I find the time.
You're most welcome to appreciate the aesthetics. I'm an aestheticist myself. At the very outset, I do sincerely appreciate the very fact that you appreciate the beauty of it all. Don't let us turn you off
Here are the closest lyrics I was able to find, most of it does match with what the girls sing, except lines 11 and 12. Do I also hear "Hosannah" somewhere?
Stanza I:
Omnes unanimiter mundi nationes:
Dicite suaviter juvenes et senes.
Angeli, archangeli, dominationes,
Cherubin et seraphin, throni, potestates.
Principatus, virtutes in coelis ovantes,
Date gloriam Deo, Christum venerantes.
Stanza II:
Universi populi simul congaudete,
Deum trinum et unum hymnis collaudate.
De coelo pro homine descendit Messias:
Quam praedixit Gabriel, vates Isaias.
Ergo tu progredere rector potentiae,
Jube benedicere in laudem Mariae. Amen.
In liturgical churches choirs serve an important purpose in helping the congregation sing the liturgy. Most people have the service memorized but without the choir leading the responses it can get a little slow. Also a cantor is necessary to lead the people in chanting the psalm and some of the other chants during the Eucharist. In my parish the choir generally sings a hymn or more difficult piece of music during communion and sometimes during the offering. It helps people stay focused on the mass and is a beautiful addition to the service.
All this reading about choirs and what is good, what is not, reminded me of a song I learned in the '50s. Of course, that was when we American school children were learning about communism, whom to hate and who was good, how to go under our desks for safety in case the U.S. was bombed by Krushchev, Disney and Krushchev, Fidel Castro and Nixon, and finally Krushchev and his shoe at the UN in about 1960. We were also reading Animal Farm and wondering with amazement.
The words by Anna Coghill, 1854 and Lowell Mason, 1864.
(1)Work, for the night is coming, work, through the morning hours.
Work while the dew is sparkling, work 'mid springing flowers:
Work when the day grows brighter, work in the glowing sun;
Work, for the night is coming, when man's work is done.
(2)Work, for the night is coming, work in the sunny noon;
Fill brightest hours with labor, rest comes sure and soon:
Give every flying minute something to keep in store;
Work, for the night is coming, when man works no more.
(3)Work, for the night is coming, under the sunset skies;
While their bright tints are glowing, work, for daylight flies:
Work till the last beam fadeth, fadeth to shine no more;
Work while the night is dark'ning when man's work is o'er.
Well, we thought the lyrics were prophecy, especially when they made an American propaganda film about the American workforce, and this was the background music all the way through . . . .
Older hymns (while this one is certainly not ancient) do not necessarily mean either better music or lyrics. Also, what makes one person's soul soar with praise can be mundane, disappointing to another. The purpose of music within worship, after all, is not about what III like but about what honors G-d.
If a song has wrong (or no) theology, what is it for in worship?
I agree with most of the other posters that church choirs definately do have an important purpose. But my church almost has the opposite problem. It has a very fine choir and a great music program. The problem is, the church is a little bit too proud of the choir. They see it as the answer to just about everything. I am part of the outreach (evangelism) group at my church, and when the subject of growing the church and evangelism comes up, many in the congregation simply say "well, we have a great choir, people should join us because of that" Case closed. They don't see a need to reach out to the neighborhood or use innovative ways to reach people outside the church. In some ways I see our choir as a stumblng block to reaching out.
So what you are saying is one can't appreciate esthetics without some deep rooted intuitive feeling for God ?
Actually the words of the choir are what grates to me the most so yes I do try to avoid hearing it as much as possible. To be honest in most choral music I love the words are barely audible or understandable. And I would never sing religious lyrics as it feels hypocritical.
I love the Arts, I love Architecture and I see no hand of God in it at all, all I see is the hand of man pure and simple. Great beautiful and artistic talent has nothing to do with God for me. What makes the choir music beautiful is not the lyrics but the music and the sound borne out of a myriad of voices.
I know many people who sing in choirs ( my MIL started her own) and for them it has little to do with God with either.
Michelangelo or Bruneschelli's primary concern was earthly vanity , wanting to go down in posterity and of course the expression of Natural Artistic sensibilities.
Cathedrals were built by flesh and blood men , a vanity of men not God who surely as supreme being has no needs of such flim-flammery and superflous frivolities. Popes, Bishops, wealthy Merchants ordered the building of great Cathedrals, Churches, the commissioning of great artistic pieces, not God, the belief was primarily one of imposing political power and cowering the believers/poor with the impressive scale of so called religious works .
If you genuinely believe a Borgia or a Medici was concerned about true belief then maybe you are the one deceiving yourself.
Art is not the end product of belief or God, it is the end product of consciousness and a desire to express oneself in an esthetic manner.
I might appreciate a well made film about witches or vampires, unicorns etc...it does not mean I believe in them.
I have to admit attitudes like that tend to demonstrate why many Atheists will stay away completely from anything with even the remotest religious connotations. Religion and Faith have little in common.
One is for show , display, political and social expediency, another is a modest, introspective very personal belief. I see little of that in choirs. What I see however is simple beauty. Not the beauty of God but the far more potent beauty that man can achieve with his natural abilities not any god given potency.
If someone wrote a terribly beautiful piece of music about , the Easter Bunny, Faries, Trolls,or Unicorns ( no lyrics or lyrics oyu might not understand) then I guess that would demonstrate the existence of those creatures ?
I am sorry I even bothered to respond to this thread. Some of you people just twist everything. It's almost pathological.
I am both an Archaeologist and an Anthropologist, man's wondrous cultures, arts , crafts and skills fascinates me by nature. Believe what you want but human nature is fascinating enough without having to see the hand of God in everything.
Good-Bye and thank you for making sure I never try to find any points of reference with a Christian again.
It is really sad that an Atheist cannot make what I thought was a perfectly pleasant post and not be answered sarcastically.
This forum has opened my eyes on American Christianity in ways which have quite frankly shocked me. I am actually thinking of leaving it together because I am not sure I can cope with the ridiculousness of it all.
It really saddens me that I cannot show my appreciation of music without being patronised and derided . That is just pathetic.
If the end product is so beautiful then there is no way that the sarcastic "source" you imply had anything to do with it.
I shall continue to enjoy choral music, architecture and great art but I shall try to make sure I stay clear of the "source". I obviously lack the intellectual enlightenement to fully appreciate the finer meaning of great esthetic works of art.
Moosekeeter:
I don't believe that I have posted in the religion forum before today, nor have I come across any of your other posts. But as an American Christian I wanted to say that I appreciate the participation of an honest, thoughtful atheist in a forum about Christianity. My faith can survive debates with and interaction with people who do not believe. I actually think it makes it stronger. I think every believer should examine their faith and wrestle with the doubts. Though we disagree about the most fundamental question at the heart of existence, we both share an appreciation of the transcendental beauty of art and music. The transcendence of art and music, and the fact that I as a mammal can appreciate it and that it touches something inside me, sets me and all other humans apart from the rest of the mammals. While you may disagree, to me this 'apartness' is so profound that it points to the divine.
"My God Reigns. My God Reigns. My God Reigggggns. My God Reigns." ???
Those are brilliant.
I think some of the criticism of contemporay Christian music has merit. Some music writers have had more enthusiasm and passion for God than good theology. Hopefully the songs that include bad theology will fall by the wayside.
However, "Our God Reigns" is good theology and is taken from Rev. 19:6, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns." A condensed version, but the truth is still there. It is a declaration of the majesty and power of God. Same truth in the "Hallelujah Chorus", "For the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth...."
Rev. 4:8 addresses repetition. "Day after day and night after night they (the living beings around the throne of God) keep on saying, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty - the one who always was, who is, and who is still to come." Day after day and night after night sounds like a lot of repetition.
I love the old hymns. "A Mighty Fortress" is one of my all-time favorites, and the great hymns should be kept alive and well in the church. But I think there is also room for the simpler, more easily sung stream of songs in the church. The good thing about the contemporary choruses is that they can be easily sung. Worshippers are often freed up to think about what they are singing and to focus on the worhip experience in addition to the mechanics of producing the music. It's just a different style, a style that fits some in the church better than just hymns and high church.
I really enjoy my church's choir, and I sing in one of the 4 choirs that my church has. It's great to be part of the music ministry, and be of an encouragement to members and potential members through songs and praises to God.
Our choir, of course, handles our standard Mass and does a wonderful job. Yes, they serve a great purpose. Song during the Mass is just another form of prayer. Is prayer important during a Mass/Service? I'll let you make the call.
For me, I prefer a more contemporary approach to music, but each his own. We also have a youth band, known as the Life Teen Band, which provide the music for a youth oriented Mass once a month. Using contemporary style music during the Mass is somewhat rare, but is certainly welcomed by the parish youth and many adults.
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