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So, the danger that an "apostate" poses is that they will tell others in that religion what they believe to be true and it might persuade others to believe it also? What does that say about that religion's "truth", if it can't be challenged without failing the test?
Pleroo are you talking about people who have come to an accurate understanding of Jesus and God?
Or are you talking about people who misunderstand, have been mislead, or whose knowledge is incomplete? There is world of difference.
Take a step back and ask yourself the following. Had you been a Christian in the early days of Christianity...
Would it have been ok for those early Christians, let's say the apostles, to accept brothers/sisters who accepted Jesus as the Savior but who then turned around and rejected Jesus as the Christ?
Did some early Christians attempt to cause divisions among their brothers and sisters? What does the Bible teach about those people?
I know some, perhaps you, do not believe in Satan as an entity. Satan was real to Jesus. He was tempted by him so I'll accept what Jesus taught over anything that men say...
Consider what Jesus said in John 8:44 about Satan? Do you think there was any harm done? Is there wisdom to be gained from those who know the truth but lie? Some would consider him (Satan) the first apostate "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
So, the danger that an "apostate" poses is that they will tell others in that religion what they believe to be true and it might persuade others to believe it also? What does that say about that religion's "truth", if it can't be challenged without failing the test?
Yep, JWs and other Christians are equally guilty of shunning those who have left their religion. I think the difference is that for JW's it's an official Watchtower stance, whereas for many other Christians, it's just a personal decision.
Unfortunately to the magical thinkers and woo woo artists with their unbelievable lack of reason, various supernatural entities, and such . . . anyone who does not believe in that nonsense is an apostate. They don't have an accurate and understanding of God or Jesus . . . so those who DO are considered apostate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me
Pleroo are you talking about people who have come to an accurate understanding of Jesus and God?
Or are you talking about people who misunderstand, have been mislead, or whose knowledge is incomplete? There is world of difference.
Take a step back and ask yourself the following. Had you been a Christian in the early days of Christianity...
Would it have been ok for those early Christians, let's say the apostles, to accept brothers/sisters who accepted Jesus as the Savior but who then turned around and rejected Jesus as the Christ?
Did some early Christians attempt to cause divisions among their brothers and sisters? What does the Bible teach about those people?
The simple truth is that God is interested in having us produce agape love for life, period. What you believe that makes you DO THAT . . . is irrelevant. All the division and concern over dogma and the "precepts and doctrines of men" is against God's wishes. God does not care one whit WHY you "love God and each other" daily and repent when you don't . . . as long as you DO!!
Quote:
I know some, perhaps you, do not believe in Satan as an entity. Satan was real to Jesus. He was tempted by him so I'll accept what Jesus taught over anything that men say...
Consider what Jesus said in John 8:44 about Satan? Do you think there was any harm done? Is there wisdom to be gained from those who know the truth but lie? Some would consider him (Satan) the first apostate "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
Satan is the adversary. We ALL have that adversary in us as the Reptilian brain and limbic system . . . our very own internal Serpent that is part of our motivational center in the brain. It has NO ability to reason or understand good or evil . . . so WE have to discriminate for it. When we are immature and lack self-control . . . the Serpent makes most of the decisions indiscriminately seeking pleasure and avoiding pain. We have to learn NOT to follow its urges when it would harm others. Agape love is the motive that will produce the most self-control and love of God and each other. ALL the nonsense in the disparate religions is just that . . . nonsense . . . the result of human vanity and hubris.
Uh... no, there are specific signs for cults. There are plenty of Christian denominations I disagree with, but don't consider them to be cults. Mind and time control, forcing a specific education, shunning everyone outside the JWs.. all points to a cult.
You can even tell here with the JWs vomiting out so much of their memorized talking points, trying to defend the insanity.
Mind and time control? forcing a specific education?
Pray for God's spirit, read your Bible, meditate on it and apply it. Read your Bible, pray for God's spirit, meditate on what you read.
Shunning everyone outside the JWs?
JWs talk to everyone Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews, atheists, pastors, clergy, bikers, etc. JWs work and shop and vacation, take picnics, go to school, even some sporting events. So...no...try again.
Unfortunately to the magical thinkers and woo woo artists with their unbelievable lack of reason, various supernatural entities, and such . . . anyone who does not believe in that nonsense is an apostate. They don't have an accurate and understanding of God or Jesus . . . so those who DO are considered apostate.
The simple truth is that God is interested in having us produce agape love for life, period. What you believe that makes you DO THAT . . . is irrelevant. All the division and concern over dogma and the "precepts and doctrines of men" is against God's wishes. God does not care one whit WHY you "love God and each other" daily and repent when you don't . . . as long as you DO!! Satan is the adversary. We ALL have that adversary in us as the Reptilian brain and limbic system . . . our very own internal Serpent that is part of our motivational center in the brain. It has NO ability to reason or understand good or evil . . . so WE have to discriminate for it. When we are immature and lack self-control . . . the Serpent makes most of the decisions indiscriminately seeking pleasure and avoiding pain. We have to learn NOT to follow its urges when it would harm others. Agape love is the motive that will produce the most self-control and love of God and each other. ALL the nonsense in the disparate religions is just that . . . nonsense . . . the result of human vanity and hubris.
Who told you about God and Jesus, a book? a friend? your mom and dad, a workmate? a voice in your head?
Where do people get this notion of God and Jesus?
Where did you draw this notion about agape love? Of your own originality?
Did you wake up one day and say to yourself, "there must be a God and Jesus."
They will always misrepresent what Jehovah's Witness do, what an apostate is and how one qualifies nd how family treats such ones.
Now one family member of my family was totally cut off by his/our family members because he was a Jehovah's Witness and they came from many so-called "Christian" churches. That is what is common.
Yes, I've observed that happen to some close to me.
Yet a good many family members do so out of ignorance, misunderstanding, or being mislead by all the hatred that is out there. With time, some sincere family members eventually figure that out.
Pleroo are you talking about people who have come to an accurate understanding of Jesus and God?
Or are you talking about people who misunderstand, have been mislead, or whose knowledge is incomplete? There is world of difference.
Take a step back and ask yourself the following. Had you been a Christian in the early days of Christianity...
Would it have been ok for those early Christians, let's say the apostles, to accept brothers/sisters who accepted Jesus as the Savior but who then turned around and rejected Jesus as the Christ?
Did some early Christians attempt to cause divisions among their brothers and sisters? What does the Bible teach about those people?
I know some, perhaps you, do not believe in Satan as an entity. Satan was real to Jesus. He was tempted by him so I'll accept what Jesus taught over anything that men say...
Consider what Jesus said in John 8:44 about Satan? Do you think there was any harm done? Is there wisdom to be gained from those who know the truth but lie? Some would consider him (Satan) the first apostate "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
That's the tactic.... Assign the label of liar and satanic to anyone who has come to believe that what your brand of religion teaches as truth , isn't truth. That way, when they tell you what they believe is false about your religion you can assume the worst about their motives and avoid having your beliefs challenged. Effective fear tactic, a form of mind control. It's hardly unique to JWs, of course.
That's the tactic.... Assign the label of liar and satanic to anyone who has come to believe that what your brand of religion teaches as truth , isn't truth. That way, when they tell you what they believe is false about your religion you can assume the worst about their motives and avoid having your beliefs challenged. Effective fear tactic, a form of mind control. It's hardly unique to JWs, of course.
I read the part you had issue with and, correct me hd4me if I'm wrong, but they were saying the father of the lie was Satan and showing where apostasy came from. They were merely showing where ACTUAL apostasy came from and who apostates imitate rather than God.
As they mentioned, there is a difference between someone misunderstanding or even misapplication of scriptures and someone KNOWING scripture and teaching lies. I actually posted earlier what the bible considers an apostate and just because someone disagrees with another does necessarily make them one. However, the ones who claim to be Gods servants but teach things they know are not supported by the bible ARE apostates. Now, ones who misunderstood previously might not know truth so these ones would not be apostates. However, God, not I, might label ones as such if they are shown clear truth from Gods word to be corrected and change their teachings or beliefs yet instead of changing they refuse truth preferring darkness.
I don't know hd4me but it does seem we share the same faith. You mentioned it's their brand of religion however I am not part of his/ her religious organization but I think it's safe to say although not being in the same organization religion we both try to base our teachings and beliefs on Gods word the bible. While some might think Gods true words are exclusive to only some ALL can be united if ones truly reads the bible, meditate, go to more mature ones for deeper understanding and correction, application and prays for understanding to teach and believe truth and not settle/ fall for things not proven.
By what I read so far hd4me has continually backed their thoughts by scriptures, which as a bible student I appreciate, while others who get the most upset, no offense, I notice use only conjecture, opinions, rage and second hand information yet do not support their point by scripture.
I read the part you had issue with and, correct me hd4me if I'm wrong, but they were saying the father of the lie was Satan and showing where apostasy came from. They were merely showing where ACTUAL apostasy came from and who apostates imitate rather than God.
As they mentioned, there is a difference between someone misunderstanding or even misapplication of scriptures and someone KNOWING scripture and teaching lies. I actually posted earlier what the bible considers an apostate and just because someone disagrees with another does necessarily make them one. However, the ones who claim to be Gods servants but teach things they know are not supported by the bible ARE apostates. Now, ones who misunderstood previously might not know truth so these ones would not be apostates. However, God, not I, might label ones as such if they are shown clear truth from Gods word to be corrected and change their teachings or beliefs yet instead of changing they refuse truth preferring darkness.
I don't know hd4me but it does seem we share the same faith. You mentioned it's their brand of religion however I am not part of his/ her religious organization but I think it's safe to say although not being in the same organization religion we both try to base our teachings and beliefs on Gods word the bible. While some might think Gods true words are exclusive to only some ALL can be united if ones truly reads the bible, meditate, go to more mature ones for deeper understanding and correction, application and prays for understanding to teach and believe truth and not settle/ fall for things not proven.
By what I read so far hd4me has continually backed their thoughts by scriptures, which as a bible student I appreciate, while others who get the most upset, no offense, I notice use only conjecture, opinions, rage and second hand information yet do not support their point by scripture.
Great big leap there, to assume that because people don't agree with your interpretation of what is truth according to your bible, that they are purposely teaching lies, don't you think?
As for those who don't back everything up with "God's word", maybe they've come to believe that the collection of books you call God's word, isn't. Which means they are not lying when they say what they believe to be truth. I don't care if you disagree with them, but it's disingenuous to go around saying people are being purposely deceptive because they disagree with you.
Conjecture and opinions ... that is all anyone has, even those that support them with quotes from a book they consider to be "God's word" (a SECOND HAND source, by the way). The bible being God's word is just your opinion and conjecture as well.
And rage? How do you determine that someone on a message board is upset or enraged just because they are sharing their opinion? The same way you determine that someone must be a liar because they have come to see things differently from you? Conjecture on your part.
And again, I ask --- What exactly is the danger that "apostates" pose to you? Can't your version of truth stand up to the challenge?
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