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I'd like to discuss salvation and the Catholic Church if anyone wants to do that with me. In two parts.
I would like the the first part...which is this thread, to focus solely and exclusively on understanding what the Catholic Church teaches respecting how one can be saved. Using authoritative references from respective Catholic web sites if at all possible.
The second part will deal with whether what the Catholic Church teaches on this lines up with the Scriptures.
So...if we could confine this thread to only discovering what the Catholic Church does in fact believe with respect to being saved...that would be great.
I don't want this thread to disintegrate into Catholic and/or Protestant bashing (both sides may need to exercise some measure of self-control to accomplish this ). My purpose in starting this thread is purely and only to find out definitively what the Catholic Church official teaches on this important subject. With a view to discussing whether Catholic teaching lines up with Scripture in thread number 2, once the Catholic Church's teaching on this has been adequately and clearly understood in this thread.
Please note that I consider myself a Protestant Christian even though I was raised a Catholic but again for purposes of this particular thread...I am not interested in talking about the differences between my Protestant and Catholic beliefs. I just want to definitively and as clearly as I can to understand what the Catholic Church teaches regarding salvation. That's it. Nothing else on this thread...if n' ya all don't mind .
I'd like to discuss salvation and the Catholic Church if anyone wants to do that with me. In two parts.
I would like the the first part...which is this thread, to focus solely and exclusively on understanding what the Catholic Church teaches respecting how one can be saved. Using authoritative references from respective Catholic web sites if at all possible.
The second part will deal with whether what the Catholic Church teaches on this lines up with the Scriptures.
So...if we could confine this thread to only discovering what the Catholic Church does in fact believe with respect to being saved...that would be great.
I don't want this thread to disintegrate into Catholic and/or Protestant bashing (both sides may need to exercise some measure of self-control to accomplish this ). My purpose in starting this thread is purely and only to find out definitively what the Catholic Church official teaches on this important subject. With a view to discussing whether Catholic teaching lines up with Scripture in thread number 2, once the Catholic Church's teaching on this has been adequately and clearly understood in this thread.
Please note that I consider myself a Protestant Christian even though I was raised a Catholic but again for purposes of this particular thread...I am not interested in talking about the differences between my Protestant and Catholic beliefs. I just want to definitively and as clearly as I can to understand what the Catholic Church teaches regarding salvation. That's it. Nothing else on this thread...if n' ya all don't mind .
Thanks.
Carlos
You say you were raised Catholic, so you should already know all this stuff. If not, then you should go to an official Catholic source for the answers you're seeking. You say you don't want this to be a "Catholic vs. Protestant" thing. Yeah, good luck with that. You know you're going to get a myriad of different responses. I won't get involved with it. But it should be fun to watch.
You say you were raised Catholic, so you should already know all this stuff. If not, then you should go to an official Catholic source for the answers you're seeking. You say you don't want this to be a "Catholic vs. Protestant" thing. Yeah, good luck with that. You know you're going to get a myriad of different responses. I won't get involved with it. But it should be fun to watch.
Yes...I know a lot of this stuff already but it's been many years since I last delved into it and want a refresher. I want to make sure I don't misrepresent the Catholic Church when talking about what it believes.
I might have certain beliefs of the Catholic Church wrong and there is no better way to discover that than to openly discuss what it believes with those who...well...might be Catholic and listening in.
This is one of the benefits of discussing things as opposed to my going around by myself and determining all on my own without input from anyone else...what the Catholic Church believes.
As far as not getting into heated Catholic and Protestant arguing...I am relying on there being a certain measure of self-control on the part of posters who are willing to discuss this with me on this thread. That they will stick to the subject of this thread and only it's intended topic.
Which is...again...what the Catholic Church teaches about salvation.
This thread is not about presenting Protestant anything. Protestant anything is off topic on this thread and I will report any such Protestant viewpoints expounded upon here, as being off topic for purposes of this thread. So please...if you are one of my Christian Protestant brethren and feel inclined to expand on why you think the Catholic Church is all wrong, on this thread...DON'T. As you will place me in the position of having to report your post as off topic.
I am simply and solely interested, for purpose of this thread, in determining definitively what the Catholic Church teaches on this subject. Nothing less and nothing more.
After that is determined...I will start another thread, Part 2, to discuss whether what the Catholic Church teaches lines up with Scripture or not.
I agree with Aquila. Talk to a priest if you want a refresher. Nothing good can come from this thread or your "Part 2." I see a lot of Catholic/Protestant bashing in the future of both parts of your thread. I won't touch this thread again.
I agree with Aquila. Talk to a priest if you want a refresher. Nothing good can come from this thread or your "Part 2." I see a lot of Catholic/Protestant bashing in the future of both parts of your thread. I won't touch this thread again.
That's fine Morale Officer. If you don't want to help me determine definitively what the Catholic Church teaches on salvation...that's fine.
I am sorry you have so little confidence in the self-control of those on this forum that you don't think bashing can't be avoided. I think it can most definitely be avoided. I guess you will have to just watch to see what happens eh?
It's a matter of some discipline being brought to bear upon threads here. In helping those threads stick to the subject of the original post.
And this thread is only about determining what the Catholic Church believes. Nothing else.
I think your suggestion to talk to a priest is well...not a good one. It's much easier for me to start a thread and discuss things openly here than to go find a priest, buy a buss pass, go and talk to him, and then come home only to realize that I forgot to ask him something and then do it all over again. That's a ridiculous waste of my time in comparision to discussing things over the Internet with anyone that cares to discuss them.
Incidentally...while I appreciate all input I am not interested in discussing my methodology on this thread, why I started it, why I shouldn't have, why it won't come to any good, or other such things. I am interested in discussing one thing and one thing only. What is the official position of the Catholic Church with respect to salvation...how one can be saved or forgiven. If anyone wants to help me determine that definitively...fantastic. If not...please don't get involved in this thread.
I wish you well Morale Officer.
Carlos
Last edited by carlos123; 03-16-2009 at 02:55 AM..
The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
It seems quite clear that according to Catholic belief...Baptism is absolutely essential for salvation. Being born of water as described in John 3 is seen to be the act of water baptism by the Catholic Church such that to be born again one must be born of water and the Spirit.
I'll do some more reading and digging around but that's what I have so far.
Not entirely sure about where the sacrements or faith overall enter in to salvation. Presumably one must also exercise faith.
There are many threads here about the Catholic Faith..They mostly are bashing and insulting, though..There are many good, decent faithful Catholics here who love the Lord as much as anyone else here, follow the love commandment same as we do, worship together, same as we do and believe the same things of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as we do..and would be happy to answer these questions you are posing..
If I desire to know more of their beliefs and practices I would ask them, or better yet attend a couple of services with them or help in some of their charities around town or in some of their international charities..Then I have already been with them on mamy occasion, because my maternal relatives are all RC..Wonderful sense of family and deeply committed to Christ..
I really hope this thread will not paint an evil picture of millions of good people..
I pray that all planks will be left at the door of this thread
I do not wish to diminish our doctrinal differences, but there is no "winning" team. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. Christian's at many levels are spiritually dysfunctional... but that does not make us hell bound, it makes us what we are, depraved sinners who have only our Lord Jesus Christ as God's only atoning work. If this is so, the evidence is known to God.
From a personal understanding (I'm an Evangelical) , none of these doctrinal issues present a "disqualification" of salvation... IMO. I seek to find common ground against the new false doctrines of relativism and the denial of the deity of Christ, which I might add, are rarely if ever generated by the RC church. The RC church has been at the forefront as "defenders of the faith" and has made great strides (recently) to reach to all. We all benefit from the mother church in her strength.
Are the Protestant Churches prodigals? Perhaps... but we are indeed more knowledgeable from a Biblical perspective as a body of saints. In the same breath we Evangelicals are at times spiritually bankrupt, and I find the RC church less so from a parishioner perspective. I do see the RC church as having internal leadership struggles but I might add... having no struggle is a sure sign of death. It is healthy to acknowledge our failures and repent of them, but it is not His wish for us to be divided about our savior.
Having had this conversation on more than one occasion... here is from a previous post of mine. This information is readily available.
Quote:
Though both Evangelicals and Roman Catholic's might use the same words and quote the same Scriptures, at least four fundamental issues separate Evangelical and Catholic doctrine.
1. Evangelicals hold to sola fide (justification by faith only in Christ alone) while official Roman Catholic doctrine teaches that justification also involves human effort and merit.
2. Evangelicals teach that the new birth is not dependent on water baptism while Roman Catholic doctrine teaches that water baptism is a “sacrament of regeneration.”
3. Evangelicals affirm sola scriptura (the Word of God alone is our final authority for doctrine and Christian life) while Roman Catholic doctrine teaches that church tradition and the authority of the pope sustains equal validity with the Bible.
4. Evangelicals hold that all believers are priests with immediate access to God through Jesus Christ while Roman Catholic doctrine teaches that the clergy, saints, and the Virgin Mary are also mediators whom individuals need to approach God.
This is a joint understanding of Both Evangelicals and Roman Catholic "signer's" in 1995.The January 19 gathering included Colson, Campus Crusade for Christ's founder Bill Bright, and theologian J. I. Packer (all ECT signers), along with ECT critics MacArthur, Ligonier Ministries' R. C. Sproul, apologist John Ankerberg, author Michael Horton, and pastor D. James Kennedy, who hosted the meeting at his Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Moody Bible Institute president Joseph Stowell moderated, with assistance from church historian John Woodbridge.
Catholic ECT signatories are commending the Fort Lauderdale discourse as representing the sort of healthy ongoing discussion they hoped ECT would stimulate. Neuhaus, of the New York-based Religion and Public Life organization, says it "is in accord with ECT's clear declaration that there are many questions that need to be more fully explored." Catholic ECT signer Keith Fournier, author of "Evangelical Catholics and A House United: Evangelicals and Catholics Together," lauded the Fort Lauderdale outcome, saying it represents the "true spirit of ecumenism" that honestly considers both commonalities and differences.
This is a joint release statement from Evangelicals and Roman Catholics :
"We (my emphasis) understand the statement that 'we are justified by grace through faith because of Christ,' in terms of the substitutionary atonement and imputed righteousness of Christ, leading to full assurance of eternal salvation; we seek to testify in all circumstances and contexts to this, the historic Protestant understanding of salvation by faith alone (sola fide).
"While we view all who profess to be Christian—Protestant and Catholic and Orthodox—with charity and hope, our confidence that anyone is truly a brother and sister in Christ depends not only on the content of his or her confession but on our perceiving signs of regeneration in his or her life".
"Though we reject proselytizing as ECT defines it (that is, 'sheep-stealing' for denominational aggrandizement), we hold that evangelism and church planting are always legitimate, whatever forms of church life are present already."
We are not that far apart on Doctrine.
The saints should not focus on what man and his finite perception revels, but rather focusing on God. Discussions regarding doctrine should be based on
Gal 5:6b ... the only thing that matters is faith working through love.
I am a former catholic.... the biggest problem I have with Catholic teachings is the doctrine of purgatory and the classification of sins into mortal and venial.....THIS IS A DANGEROUS DOCTRINE......THERE ARE NO 2nd CHANCES AFTER DEATH......not to mention indulgences and praying for the dead to get them out of purgatory sooner......This is simply anti-biblical.....and was never taught by Jesus.......The other issue I cannot accept is that of the immaculate conception of Mary and that she is sinless.......and the numerous prayers and adorations to Mary as an intercessor......Only Jesus was without sin and only Jesus is our intercessor......He taught us the Lord's Prayer.....which is to be directed to the Father......As believers we can now approach the throne of grace and be brought back into relationship with God our Father because of Jesus' sacrifice......These are two serious false teaching in Catholicism which contradict scripture.........As far as Baptism is concerned I believe that every believer should be baptized if given the opportunity to be baptized....as Jesus himself was baptized......It is an act of obedience......and every true believer will want to be baptized.....HOWEVER.....I do not believe in infant baptism except that the parents should instruct their children in the Faith.....at the age of reason a person should be baptized for catholics I think this is accomplished with confirmation.........a bit confusing for most catholics
It seems quite clear that according to Catholic belief...Baptism is absolutely essential for salvation. Being born of water as described in John 3 is seen to be the act of water baptism by the Catholic Church such that to be born again one must be born of water and the Spirit.
I'll do some more reading and digging around but that's what I have so far.
Not entirely sure about where the sacrements or faith overall enter in to salvation. Presumably one must also exercise faith.
Carlos
Hi Carlos,
Bless you on your efforts regarding this thread. I have a question regarding this particular post. When babies are christined in the Catholic church (is this the right term?), is this considered baptism? If so, is there an additional baptism later in life after one is saved? Or does one get baptized as a baby, then get saved later when they are old enough to make a decision?
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). My purpose in starting this thread is purely and only to find out definitively what the Catholic Church official teaches on this important subject. With a view to discussing whether Catholic teaching lines up with Scripture in thread number 2, once the Catholic Church's teaching on this has been adequately and clearly understood in this thread. 
From a previous post JDDL
