Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
All the more reason to worship Him to day lay down our life for Him to repent daily to seek his face, to seek him out because he is just and so is his wrath. His creation is his to judge because his love is just!
Hi, I believe that God's wrath and His justice serve a higher purpose, that to be the eventual restoration of all to Him. He breaks to heal. All will eventually be headed up in the Lord Jesus Christ, reunited in Him, and reconciled to the Father through Him. God bless.
Quote:
"He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one head in Him. And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will
How many times have you heard individuals on Christian threads say....
"Yes, God is love, but He is also justice."
Without Turning To Any Concordance (You are pledged to honesty)
How often does God speak of His justice in the Old Testament?
How often does God speak of His justice in the New Testament?
'Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy; for thou renderest to every man according to his work.' - Psl. 62:12-
The religious mind, however, educated upon the theories yet prevailing in the so-called religious world, must here recognize a departure from the presentation to which they have become accustomed: to make the psalm speak according to prevalent theoretic modes, the verse would have to be changed thus:....
'To thee, O Lord belongeth justice, for thou renderest to every man according to his work.' -George MacDonald-
The word tells us if you(meaning us)being evil know how to give good gifts to your children how much more will your heavenly Father.
I have seen and read on numerous occasions how man as gone to such great lengths to rescue(save) someone , even to the point of losing there own life .
If as Jesus said you being evil would do such a thing how much more would your heavenly Father.
Please do not try and tell me the person in distress needs to ask to be rescued , because that would be plain dumb.
If you and i were ever to be found in danger and the rescuers arrived they will pluck us from danger regardless .
This is why He is called the Good Shepherd
The only thing I would suggest to consider is this:
are we explaining God's love by our idea of what love is or are we using God's love as an example after which we then strive to model? This may sound insignificant, but the difference is in our point of reference.
For example, Do we think God's love cannot allow sin (say the sin of a lifelong unrepentant heart) to lead one to hell for eternity because of what we think love is? Surely in life actions sometimes lead to consequences that alter life or even end it. Consider the drunk driver who kills an innocent party. They don't get a second chance. Neither can the drunk driver bring him back, yet he lives with that the rest of his live. In that sense discipline both teaches and results in unchangeable consequences.
Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.
When we go to great lengths to save someone from danger it is indeed a beautiful act but love is displayed not in whether they are saved but that we were willing to die attempting to save them. Otherwise, does it mean those we don't save we didn't love?
[quote=Just1Man;9213394]The only thing I would suggest to consider is this:
are we explaining God's love by our idea of what love is or are we using God's love as an example after which we then strive to model? This may sound insignificant, but the difference is in our point of reference.
For example, Do we think God's love cannot allow sin (say the sin of a lifelong unrepentant heart) to lead one to hell for eternity because of what we think love is? Surely in life actions sometimes lead to consequences that alter life or even end it. Consider the drunk driver who kills an innocent party. They don't get a second chance. Neither can the drunk driver bring him back, yet he lives with that the rest of his live. In that sense discipline both teaches and results in unchangeable consequences.
No i base it on scripture
Well rather than considering others you would do well to consider yourself
The drunk driver once he as paid for His crime as paid is debt to society, whether you or i agree with that or not , to sentence him again for the same crime he as already served time for would certainly be unjust .
So if we are blessed for obeying and cursed for disobeying , would it be just for those who serve a cursed sentence in this life , then be cursed to hell as well in the next life ?.Not even the justice system of the world system would do such a thing.But your God would do such a thing ?
1And all the tax-gatherers and the sinners were coming nigh to him, to hear him, 2and the Pharisees and the scribes were murmuring, saying -- This one doth receive sinners, and doth eat with them.' 3And he spake unto them this simile, saying, 4`What man of you having a hundred sheep, and having lost one out of them, doth not leave behind the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go on after the lost one, till he may find it? 5and having found, he doth lay [it] on his shoulders rejoicing, 6and having come to the house, he doth call together the friends and the neighbours, saying to them, Rejoice with me, because I found my sheep -- the lost one. 7`I say to you, that so joy shall be in the heaven over one sinner reforming, rather than over ninety-nine righteous men, who have no need of reformation.
If you notice there was much rejoicing . If you read some posts on here there certainly seems to be delight that many are going to this made up Hell
The Bible tells us that God hates how is that yes God hates. It also tells us that God is love so when is hate love? When both are just and God is just. So my question is if God is just and we are born vile, sinners deserving of Gods wrath not capible of any work of salvation on our own how then can those who welcome Gods wrath and reject salvation be known by God?
Some examples of Gods hate and what he does not know;
30take care(A) that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, 'How did these nations serve their gods?—that I also may do the same.' 31(B) You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every(C) abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for(D) they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods. 32[a] "Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do.(E) You shall not add to it or take from it.
11Bless, O LORD, his substance,
and(D) accept the work of his hands;
crush the loins of his adversaries,
of those who hate him, that they rise not again."
4(A) The LORD is in his holy temple;
the LORD’s(B) throne is in heaven;
his eyes see, his eyelids(C) test the children of man. 5The LORD(D) tests the righteous,
but(E) his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence. 6Let him rain coals on the wicked;
(F) fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be(G) the portion of their cup.
8Your hand will(B) find out all your enemies; your right hand will find out those who hate you. 9You will make them as(C) a blazing oven when you appear. The LORD will swallow them up in his(D) wrath, and(E) fire will consume them. Who is Gods right hand who sit's beside him?
28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God,(AY) God gave them up to(AZ) a debased mind to do(BA) what ought not to be done. 29They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Though they know(BB) God’s decree that those who practice such things(BC) deserve to die, they not only do them but(BD) give approval to those who practice them.
Like others have said, the overall picture of God's character revealed in the Scriptures is one of love, not hate...of reconciliation, not the opposite.
The Bible tells us that God hates how is that yes God hates. It also tells us that God is love so when is hate love? When both are just and God is just. So my question is if God is just and we are born vile, sinners deserving of Gods wrath not capible of any work of salvation on our own how then can those who welcome Gods wrath and reject salvation be known by God?
[/b]
The word used for Gods hate is the Hebrew word "sane'"(hate in the sense of being an enimy) ...
If Gods "hate" were a reason for the everlasting torture of unbelievers, then the word would be "satam"(hate in the sense of bearing a grudge, retaining animosity against, cherishing animosity against). However we know God does no have pleasure in the death of the wicked, even though they are his "enemies"(sane').
Gods opposition to man is not for out of vengeance sake alone, but is ultimately for correction. His anger and wrath derives from his love, they are not separate from his love. Why is this so hard to understand? Gods righteousness and justice are evident in his revealed mercies and grace through Christ. The purpose of his judgment is therefore correction and reconciliation.
The word used for Gods hate is the Hebrew word "sane'"(hate in the sense of being an enimy) ...
If Gods "hate" were a reason for the everlasting torture of unbelievers, then the word would be "satam"(hate in the sense of bearing a grudge, retaining animosity against, cherishing animosity against). However we know God does no have pleasure in the death of the wicked, even though they are his "enemies"(sane').
Gods opposition to man is not for out of vengeance sake alone, but is ultimately for correction. His anger and wrath derives from his love, they are not separate from his love. Why is this so hard to understand? Gods righteousness and justice are evident in his revealed mercies and grace through Christ. The purpose of his judgment is therefore correction and reconciliation.
I am curious Ironmaw......since you say we ET are wrong in our interpretation not to mention painting a vile image of God, amost inexcusable. My question to you is what do you believe you deserve from God?
I am curious Ironmaw......since you say we ET are wrong in our interpretation not to mention painting a vile image of God, amost inexcusable. My question to you is what do you believe you deserve from God?
If your waiting for me to say that i deserve to die, then fine ... I deserve to die, just like everyone else.
Somehow, i get the feeling that the real question is what do i believe to be Gods responsibility to his creation? Or if i believe he bares any responsibility at all for anything he does? If that is the real question then yes i think God is responsible for his creation, and ultimately that is why he became a man and died for the sins of his creation.
Whether or not that is what you meant to ask me, I would like to pose that question to you ...
Do you believe God is responsible for his creation ... ?
The drunk driver once he as paid for His crime as paid is debt to society, whether you or i agree with that or not , to sentence him again for the same crime he as already served time for would certainly be unjust .
I am not suggesting he is retried, but I am pointing out that in spite of his debt to society being paid he will bear a personal burden that will not be lifted at the end of a prison sentence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
So if we are blessed for obeying and cursed for disobeying , would it be just for those who serve a cursed sentence in this life , then be cursed to hell as well in the next life ?.Not even the justice system of the world system would do such a thing.But your God would do such a thing ?
I am not sure what you mean by comparing a cursed sentence in this life to what becomes of us in the next life. I do think scripture causes one to reconsider what we considered cursed in this life.
John 15:19b "but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."
Matthew 5:10 "Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account."
There are many other examples, but these verses show a seeming oxymoronic view of curse and blessing. What God wants to do is bring each of us near to him, not that we would perish.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
1And all the tax-gatherers and the sinners were coming nigh to him, to hear him, 2and the Pharisees and the scribes were murmuring, saying -- This one doth receive sinners, and doth eat with them.' 3And he spake unto them this simile, saying, 4`What man of you having a hundred sheep, and having lost one out of them, doth not leave behind the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go on after the lost one, till he may find it? 5and having found, he doth lay [it] on his shoulders rejoicing, 6and having come to the house, he doth call together the friends and the neighbours, saying to them, Rejoice with me, because I found my sheep -- the lost one. 7`I say to you, that so joy shall be in the heaven over one sinner reforming, rather than over ninety-nine righteous men, who have no need of reformation.
If you notice there was much rejoicing . If you read some posts on here there certainly seems to be delight that many are going to this made up Hell
The joy described is for the man who was "found". The reason the rejoicing is so great is because the price of dying "lost" is so terrible. Frankly, I wouldn't trust any particular postings if they appear to delight in anyone ending up in eternal hell. That is not God's view and thus should not be ours.
Philippians 2:3-4 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
