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2. If our salvation can be lost, ETERNAL LIFE cannot be eternal life. It could only be temporary hope for eternal life that couldn't become eternal life until after we die. As long as we are still on Earth, how can we call ETERNAL what can be lost? 1 John 5:13 says that the life we have is eternal, not possibly or potentially eternal or to be determined by whetever we manage to keep or lose it. It says we can KNOW that we have eternal life. Thus, how can we know that ouf our salvation isn't secure?
On point #2:
I think I see your point, that you are basically defining "eternity" as spending forever with God in heaven. But, isn't there also the possibility of eternity spent away from the presence of God?
We are already in eternity...it's not a "someday" thing. We have it now. Both the unsaved, and the saved, will live forever. IE: both have "eternity". Right now today. However, the difference is one has eternity spent with the Father and Jesus, and the other does not....an eternal seperation. We can be likened on earth to the butterfly in the cocoon stage...only a hint of the glory that is to come. Death is a doorway to the next phase of life...it is leaving the cocoon behind...just a vacated shell that we once lived in...the life has left it and moved on.
Whether we spend eternity with God, or not, is entirely up to us. If we don't have Jesus and God with us now, then neither will we when we step through death's door. If you have Him now, then so also will you have Him after "death". It sure is nice to know "ahead of time"...
I believe that absolutely nobody can take salvation away from us, but that some individuals foolishly decide to throw it away themselves...by thier choice. They trample underfoot the precious blood of Jesus, as if it were of no value. They choose to depart from serving the living God. If they choose to not live with God in their lives now, then why would He force them to spend eternity with Him after death? The Bible says: "choose ye this day whom you will serve"...we are given freedom of choice...
I think I see your point, that you are basically defining "eternity" as spending forever with God in heaven. But, isn't there also the possibility of eternity spent away from the presence of God?
We are already in eternity...it's not a "someday" thing. We have it now. Both the unsaved, and the saved, will live forever. IE: both have "eternity". Right now today. However, the difference is one has eternity spent with the Father and Jesus, and the other does not....an eternal seperation. We can be likened on earth to the butterfly in the cocoon stage...only a hint of the glory that is to come. Death is a doorway to the next phase of life...it is leaving the cocoon behind...just a vacated shell that we once lived in...the life has left it and moved on.
Whether we spend eternity with God, or not, is entirely up to us. If we don't have Jesus and God with us now, then neither will we when we step through death's door. If you have Him now, then so also will you have Him after "death". It sure is nice to know "ahead of time"...
I believe that absolutely nobody can take salvation away from us, but that some individuals foolishly decide to throw it away themselves...by thier choice. They trample underfoot the precious blood of Jesus, as if it were of no value. They choose to depart from serving the living God. If they choose to not live with God in their lives now, then why would He force them to spend eternity with Him after death? The Bible says: "choose ye this day whom you will serve"...we are given freedom of choice...
Bud
Thank you Bud, and your point is well taken on where we spend eternity. I guess I see the 2nd death, as an eternal separation from God be it in the Lake of Fire or wherever that place is.
I am a strong believer that people can't lose their salvation, but they can forget it.
1 Peter 1:1 This letter is from Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to God's chosen people who are living as foreigners in the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocis, Asia, and Bithynia. 1:2 God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and His Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed Him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.
"BORN AGAIN TO A LIVING HOPE...THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE"
1 Peter 1:3 All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is by His great mercy and grace that we have been born again, because God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Now we live with great expectation,
1:4 and we have a priceless inheritance - an inheritance that is kept in heaven for you, pure and undefiled, beyond the reach of change and decay.
1:5 And through your faith, God is protecting you by His power until you receive this salvation, which is ready to be revealed on the last day for all to see.
1:6 So be truly glad. There is wonderful joy ahead, even though you have to endure many trials for a little while. These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It [your faith] is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold - though your faith is far more precious than gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world.
1:8 You love Him even though you have never seen Him. Though you do not see Him now, you trust Him; and you rejoice with a glorious, inexpressible joy.
1:9 THE REWARD FOR TRUSTING [OBEYING] HIM WILL BE THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOULS.
1:10 This salvation was something even the prophets wanted to know more about when they prophesied about this gracious salvation prepared for you.
If you do not work out your salvation with fear and trembling while here on earth, and obey His commandments until Jesus' second coming, you will not be saved...rescued from the judgement of death...eternal destruction..seperated for all eternity from God...death. There will be no ETERNAL LIFE for you to enjoy in the Presence of God.
Christ died on the cross to cleans old sins away...past sins...His one time sacrifice washed us clean from sins past...P-A-S-T S-I-N-S.
2 Peter 1:3 By His divine power, God has given us everything we need for living a godly life. We have received all of this by coming to KNOW HIM, the One Who called us to Himself by means of His marvelous glory and excellance.
1:4 And because of His glory and excellance, He has given us great and precious promises. These are the promises that enable you to share His divine nature and escape the world's corruption caused by human desires.
1:5 In view of all this, make every effort to respond to God's promises. Supplement your faith with a generous provision of moral excellance, and moral excellance with knowledge,
1:6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with patient ENDURANCE, and patient endurance with godliness,
1:7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love for everyone.
1:8 The more you grow like this, the more productive and useful you will be in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1:9 BUT THOSE WHO FAIL TO DEVELOPE IN THIS WAY ARE SHORTSIGHTED OR BLIND, FORGETTING THEY HAVE BEEN CLEANSED FROM THEIR OLD SINS.
1:10 So, dear brothers and sisters, work hard to proveyou ARE REALLY AMONG THOSE GOD HAS CALLED AND CHOSEN. DO THESE THINGS, AND YOU WILL NEVER FALL AWAY.
1:11 THEN GOD WILL GIVE YOU A GRAND ENTRANCE INTO THE ETERNAL KINGDOM OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST.
Amen....through faith...which means to obey.
1:9 THE REWARD FOR TRUSTING [OBEYING] HIM WILL BE THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOULS.
1 Peter 1:17 AND REMEMBER THAT THE HEAVENLY FATHER TO WHOM YOU PRAY HAS NO FAVORITES. HE WILL JUDGE OR REWARD YOU ACCORDING TO WHAT YOU DO. SO YOU MUST LIVE IN REVERANT FEAR OF HIM DURING YOUR TIME AS "FOREIGNERS" IN THE LAND.
YOU WERE CLEANSED FROM YOUR SINS WHEN YOU OBEYED THE TRUTH, SO NOW SHOW SINCERE LOVE. (1 PETER 1:22).
Verna you typed..."work out our salvation"..."work for our salvation"..."in fear and trembling..."......maybe you could explain the difference to me...? And I'M not the One "saying" this...the Word of God is the One Who commanded us to do this, if we planned on receiving our REWARD OF SALVATON.
Let's let the Word of God do the teaching here. Phllipians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Now it appears that you want to change the Word of God to say WORK FOR your salvation instead of WORK OUT your salvation to mean what you obviously want it mean. Now you can play on words here with me all you want. But the Scripture quoted here simply says work out your salvation. Again it doesn't mean WORK FOR your salvation, and I think that's the error you keep making when you read that verse.
To many Christians, works have meant that by being on a Board of Elders, teaching Sunday School, cleaning the church, tithing, and volunteering time, abstaining from fornication, adultery, homosexuality, drunkardness etc. is the means by which they are "working out their salvation with fear and trembling", because anything otherwise would somehow mean that their salvation may be in jeopardy. This is merely man's way, and sadly for some who take on this positon, they are missing the mark on what the bible truely teaches in regard to what salvation really is.
Now instead of looking at it as a WORK FOR SALVATION, as if Jesus never paid that price for our free gift of salvation through God's grace, let's look at it God's way.
God's way is to work out your own salvation by means of going to the very source of our salvation (God through his Son Jesus), going into the Word to renew our hearts and minds (WITH THE HELP OF THE HOLY SPIRIT) and to come into God's presence with "fear and trembling."
The fear spoken here is NOT a fear of running from God, but a different type of fear, a "reverence". A fear of not knowing that causes us to seek God and His presence.
"Trembling" refers to a shaking due to weakness, but this is also a weakness of higher purpose-a weakness that brings us to depend on God.
In our "fear and trembling" we come into His presence to know and understand His ways and thoughts. We come to know our Savior and in doing so we become like Him, bringing us peace and harmony.
You typed [i]...would you mind explaining..."and like the Lord?"[
I was typing fast here, but I meant that we are to grow and be more like the Lord on a daily basis until we reach the end of our lives.
Now Isaiah 55:8-11 say something quite interesting.
Isaiah 55:8-1: For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thingwhereto I sent it.
As you just read in Isaiah, "as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish.." so does God's Word and presence work and operate in us. As naturally as the growth of the earthly crops, we too grow and become changed and transformed.
Once the seed of "salvation" has been sown we must merely seek the nourishment of God's Word and presence. There are no human works involved, I REPEAT THERE ARE NO HUMAN WORKS INVOLVED IN OUR SALVATION. THE WORKS COME AS A RESULT OF OUR TRUST IN JESUS, BEING SAVED AND ENJOYING THAT BLESSING OF SALVATION THROUGH OUR CHANGE AND TOTAL DEPENDENCE ON GOD.
Last but not least. We are to work at making sure that our hope is truly grounded in Christ and not on our own efforts. We are to work at taking advantage of the ways that God has given us to help us grow. We should read the Bible, pray, worship, serve, give, fast and so forth. We should work to make a break with sin. We are not to just sit back passively, but are to work at repentance and renewal. We are to work at adopting and applying the positive behaviors that the Bible admonishes. In other words we are to work at love, compassion, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, endurance and others. We are to guard against the influence of the world. In other words we will adjust our friendships, our amusements, our use of time in order to combat the real presence of sin in our lives.
Verna you typed..."work out our salvation"..."work for our salvation"..."in fear and trembling..."......maybe you could explain the difference to me...? And I'M not the One "saying" this...the Word of God is the One Who commanded us to do this, if we planned on receiving our REWARD OF SALVATON.
Let's let the Word of God do the teaching here. Phllipians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Now it appears that you want to change the Word of God to say WORK FOR your salvation instead of WORK OUT your salvation to mean what you obviously want it mean. Now you can play on words here with me all you want. But the Scripture quoted here simply says work out your salvation. Again it doesn't mean WORK FOR your salvation, and I think that's the error you keep making when you read that verse.
To many Christians, works have meant that by being on a Board of Elders, teaching Sunday School, cleaning the church, tithing, and volunteering time, abstaining from fornication, adultery, homosexuality, drunkardness etc. is the means by which they are "working out their salvation with fear and trembling", because anything otherwise would somehow mean that their salvation may be in jeopardy. This is merely man's way, and sadly for some who take on this positon, they are missing the mark on what the bible truely teaches in regard to what salvation really is.
Now instead of looking at it as a WORK FOR SALVATION, as if Jesus never paid that price for our free gift of salvation through God's grace, let's look at it God's way.
God's way is to work out your own salvation by means of going to the very source of our salvation (God through his Son Jesus), going into the Word to renew our hearts and minds (WITH THE HELP OF THE HOLY SPIRIT) and to come into God's presence with "fear and trembling."
The fear spoken here is NOT a fear of running from God, but a different type of fear, a "reverence". A fear of not knowing that causes us to seek God and His presence.
"Trembling" refers to a shaking due to weakness, but this is also a weakness of higher purpose-a weakness that brings us to depend on God.
In our "fear and trembling" we come into His presence to know and understand His ways and thoughts. We come to know our Savior and in doing so we become like Him, bringing us peace and harmony.
You typed [i]...would you mind explaining..."and like the Lord?"[
I was typing fast here, but I meant that we are to grow and be more like the Lord on a daily basis until we reach the end of our lives.
Now Isaiah 55:8-11 say something quite interesting.
Isaiah 55:8-1: For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thingwhereto I sent it.
As you just read in Isaiah, "as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish.." so does God's Word and presence work and operate in us. As naturally as the growth of the earthly crops, we too grow and become changed and transformed.
Once the seed of "salvation" has been sown we must merely seek the nourishment of God's Word and presence. There are no human works involved, I REPEAT THERE ARE NO HUMAN WORKS INVOLVED IN OUR SALVATION. THE WORKS COME AS A RESULT OF OUR TRUST IN JESUS, BEING SAVED AND ENJOYING THAT BLESSING OF SALVATION THROUGH OUR CHANGE AND TOTAL DEPENDENCE ON GOD.
Last but not least. We are to work at making sure that our hope is truly grounded in Christ and not on our own efforts. We are to work at taking advantage of the ways that God has given us to help us grow. We should read the Bible, pray, worship, serve, give, fast and so forth. We should work to make a break with sin. We are not to just sit back passively, but are to work at repentance and renewal. We are to work at adopting and applying the positive behaviors that the Bible admonishes. In other words we are to work at love, compassion, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, endurance and others. We are to guard against the influence of the world. In other words we will adjust our friendships, our amusements, our use of time in order to combat the real presence of sin in our lives.
The word in the Greek is indeed "katergazomai" which means ...
1) to perform, accomplish, achieve
2) to work out i.e. to do that from which something results
a) of things: bring about, result in
3) to fashion i.e. render one fit for a thing
But your right, the point that Paul is making is not that we earn our own salvation. In context we see he is saying that while he was absent they were to live by their conscience, they did not need him to be there in order to know what to do with their salvation. We see in the next verse that it is God who gives us the will to do his work(literally he is doing the work in us). The fear and trembling are his spirit convicting us and working with our conscience to perfect us in LOVE; as it is written "love covers and multitude of sins".
Philippians 2:13
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
This verse(verse 12) obviously cannot and does not contradict what the rest of the new testament tells us about the gift of Grace in Christ as so many seem to believe. But what can we say to them?
In the immortal words of Frank Black ...
"Hang on to your ego ... Hang on ... But i know that your gonna' lose the fight."
Each one should examine themselves.....Is one truely "Born Again" if they continue in willful disobedience?? ...????? Likely not......Faith without Faithfulness is flawed.....I believe that one can loose their salvation or one can make the arguement that they were never "born again" to begin with?????........We must endure to the end......we must make every effort to OBEY God; however we are never going to be saved by our works.....NO ONE will ever be able to say that they earned their salvation thru good works or obedience.....HOWEVER......The behaviour of the "born again" Christian will reflect their true nature.....If one who is "saved" faulters and sins they will be quick to CONFESS and REPENT and get back on the right track......if not...... one must question themselves....We must be careful and work out our salvation in fear and trembling.........We must ask the Lord to help us to be truely "born again"and walk in His ways ........We must be humble and depend on the Lord always........err on the side of obedience.
Last edited by Vessif; 06-12-2009 at 05:23 AM..
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...maybe you could explain the difference to me...? And I'M not the One "saying" this...the Word of God is the One Who commanded us to do this, if we planned on receiving our REWARD OF SALVATON.
