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As usual you are skipping steps, filling in the gaps that are not there. It is clear one must believe but you can't show absolutely NO WHERE in scripture where the word believe is in the afterlife. It's ironic how "believe" and "repent" is all over the bible in verses for the living but somehow disappear when it comes to the universalist approach in interpreting reconciliation. You are playing fast and loose with scripture.
The bible is clear; one must believe to be saved and until you can produce a piece of scripture showing the words "believe" or "repent" for those verses you claim that all will be reconciled then you basically have nothing because you say one has to believe but none of your verses show those words in the afterlife. So how do you know one has to believe, it does not say so and you can't use the verses with those words because that is for the living.
Fundamentalist,
When Jesus came to the Jews he was telling them of the destruction that was coming to them in 70AD - they were to believe and repent they were Gods chosen people who had rebelled against him and were not a light to the gentiles - he told the pharisees that they went out to the nations and the converts they got to their religion they made into children of hell like themselves.
Jesus was speaking to them - what he was saying to them in a spiritual sense does apply to us as well. As believers we are the chosen of God to proclaim the good news to all, not to be bearers of the bad news that there is an eternal hell and that the only way to escape it is to become a christian.
16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: 17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now
God bless.
Matthew 25: 41Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; (YLT)
Yeah, the devil and his angels will be going to hell matt 25:
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
actually that is not true, many theologians are of arminian persuasion such as my father which believes ALL.
Both arminians and calvinists have the axiom of "not all will be saved" in the background and interpret scripture in that "light".
I have seen Arminians argue against Calvinism just like this:
1. God clearly wants all to be saved and Christ died for all
2. But man has free will to reject what God's desires
3. Otherwise all would be saved and we know that's not true
4. So calvinism must be is false.
For calvinists that axiom forces them into the ridiculous doctrine of limited atonement.
For arminians it forces them to reject God's sovereignity and to elavate man's will above God's will.
Quote:
This point really is moot as you have to play with scripture to prove you have a choice in the afterlife. You can make scripture to mean anything you want.
I don't have to make any assumptions about the afterlife.
I simply affirm the truth:
- all will bow to God and confess Jesus as LORD
- surely shall one say "in the LORD have I and righeousness strenth" and to Him will all men come.
- God will restore Sodom and her daughters
- God will remove their captivity
- All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD
You are the one deciding that the above can not happen based on presumptions about the afterlife in the absence of scripture.
Somehow "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up to the ages of the ages" is a statement of no mercy in the afterlife but "His mercy endureth to the ages of the ages" is not a statement about mercy in the afterlife.
Go figure.
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 06-22-2009 at 05:45 PM..
As usual you are skipping steps, filling in the gaps that are not there. It is clear one must believe but you can't show absolutely NO WHERE in scripture where the word believe is in the afterlife.
You are the one who said that you don't know whether or which parts of Revelation take place in the afterlife. If that is the case do we really have this abundance of scirpture describing events in the afterlife?
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
1. Resurrection of the just - aionion life
2. Resurrection of the unjust - aionion punishment
-------- AFTER LIFE ---------
3. The wise turning many to righteousness
Quote:
It's ironic how "believe" and "repent" is all over the bible in verses for the living but somehow disappear when it comes to the universalist approach in interpreting reconciliation. You are playing fast and loose with scripture.
It's ironic how "mercy" is all over the scriptures for the living but somehow it is presumed to disappear in the afterlife even though His mercy endures to the ages of the ages - ironically just as long as His punishments do.
You are the one who said that you don't know whether or which parts of Revelation take place in the afterlife. If that is the case do we really have this abundance of scirpture describing events in the afterlife?
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
1. Resurrection of the just - aionion life
2. Resurrection of the unjust - aionion punishment
-------- AFTER LIFE ---------
3. The wise turning many to righteousness
It's ironic how "mercy" is all over the scriptures for the living but somehow disappears in the afterlife
Well somehow and i do not know how the Lord Jesus Christ who is the same yesterday , today and forever is different to those in the afterlife.
You are the one who said that you don't know whether or which parts of Revelation take place in the afterlife. If that is the case do we really have this abundance of scirpture describing events in the afterlife?
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
1. Resurrection of the just - aionion life
2. Resurrection of the unjust - aionion punishment
-------- AFTER LIFE ---------
3. The wise turning many to righteousness
Quote:
It's ironic how "believe" and "repent" is all over the bible in verses for the living but somehow disappear when it comes to the universalist approach in interpreting reconciliation. You are playing fast and loose with scripture.
It's ironic how "mercy" is all over the scriptures for the living but somehow it is presumed to disappear in the afterlife even though His mercy endures to the ages of the ages - ironically just as long as His punishments do.
31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
God is unwilling to save some men, the seed of the serpent...gen 3:
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel
Jesus had this to say to some of them Matt 23:
31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Fill ye up in the greek is an imperative, so jesus was commanding them to continue in their evil course of behaviour, in order to be punished for it, he then says, how can you escape the damnation of hell..now it is absurd to think that Jesus christ wanted these men saved..
Its the exact opposite, He desired their damnation in hell, who can deny this ?
__________________
You know, some of the things you say cause me to wonder if you are not really a satanist pretending to be a Christian. Whatever the case may be, you kinda' creep me out. Sorry, i don't mean to be rude, but you seem to be full of hate and a desire for the suffering of others.
You know, some of the things you say cause me to wonder if you are not really a satanist pretending to be a Christian. Whatever the case may be, you kinda' creep me out. Sorry, i don't mean to be rude, but you seem to be full of hate and a desire for the suffering of others.
Here is what B57 said on another forum:
Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57
So lets continue to explain away hell and eternal punishment for the wicked.. lol..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Debbie Boutwell
Beloved, If eternal hell should be real I wouldn't consider it much of a laughing matter. :cry:
Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57
Then you and God have different outlooks on the matter, hear what the word says..
ps 2:
4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
ps 37
13The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.
and the saints of old
ps 52:
6The righteous also shall see, and fear, and shall laugh at him:
My response:
Quote:
Originally Posted by zandurian
So, you believe that Christ, (who incidentally was 'moved with compassion' for the multitudes just because of temporary afflictions) is now going to be just as thrilled at their torture as you say you will be? This is the sickest interpretation of scripture I've ever come across.
Sir, with all due respect (I respect you as a fellow human) you do not know what spirit you are of.
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; but it is these that testify about Me"
So, for those interested, the OP has stated that they and God will be laughing at the eternal suffering of the damned.
Ironmaw1776: It gives me the creeps too. This is what happens when a legalistic carnal mind tries to read spiritual truths. It can only perceive a reflection of the vindictiveness and vengeance contained within it's own nature.
John Calvin was such a lawyer. He read truth but never understood what he was reading. The fruit of his lack of understanding was evident then and now.
So, for those interested, the OP has stated that they and God will be laughing at the eternal suffering of the damned.
Evidently many have had this view and still have this view today. Where is the love for enemies that the Lord taught? Jesus, who is is the bosom of the Father, came to reveal the heart of the Father. He and the Father are one. It was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself, even the damned. God bless.
John Calvin was such a lawyer. He read truth but never understood what he was reading. The fruit of his lack of understanding was evident then and now.
and you do? someone is little full of themselves not to mention not entirely truthful to prove their strawman.
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