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How many threads have we had here on city-data so far on UR vs ET and where have we gotten? Everywhere except any closer to an answer. Why? Possibly because mostly all we do here is UR's throwing a bunch of scripture at ET's, who then throw a bunch of verses back at them.
If God has always intended UR for His wayward children why didn't He state throughout the bible things like, "And thy suffering in the fires for thy transgressions, while great, shall be but temporary; they shall purify thee but for a short while and thou shall then return to Me without blemish as gold." Or, "Because you have rebelled against My Word you will reap torment in hell-fire, but it certainly shall not last forever, for I will try you until your sin has been purged away and then will I receive you unto Myself as a wayward son is received by his father." I mean, words like that leave no doubt whatsoever that God intends to redeem all mankind. But the Bible doesn't give us even one clear-cut affirmation of UR like that anywhere, does it? If it does, I beg you, point it out to me.
I want to believe in UR. I just haven't seen enough evidence to totally refute it, when 50% of the verses support UR while 50% of the other verses support ET. The best way I know of to diffuse a false doctrine is to systematically deconstruct it verse by verse. Let's deconstruct ET and let's start with one of the most famous verses,
Quote:
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
Revelation 14:9-11
Now here is the Greek text for the first part of 14:11:
kai o kapnoV tou basanismou autwn eiV aiwnaV (And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever)
I don't read Greek but it looks like the bold, "autwn eiV aiwnaV" is "forever and ever". I see no Greek word "anion" so the argument, "the word, 'anion' is used, which means 'age' and it denotes just a temporary period of time with an end, not 'eternal'" I don't think can be used here. If I am wrong about the translation, please correct me.
Now let's take these verses apart, and turn it from a testimony of what appears on the surface to be a statement of certain eternal torment into one that means God will torment for only a period of time and then release the soul into His kingdom. Anyone want to start?
Last edited by thrillobyte; 07-31-2009 at 10:58 AM..
Reason: typo
So far we're off to a rousing start, not exactly the rousing start I was hoping for, however. No one's asking you to convince others if you feel it's not your job, phaze. That goes without saying.
How many threads have we had here on city-data so far on UR vs ET and where have we gotten? Everywhere except any closer to an answer. Why? Possibly because mostly all we do here is UR's throwing a bunch of scripture at ET's, who then throw a bunch of verses back at them.
If God has always intended UR for His wayward children why didn't He state throughout the bible things like, "And thy suffering in the fires for thy transgressions, while great, shall be but temporary; they shall purify thee but for a short while and thou shall then return to Me without blemish as gold." Or, "Because you have rebelled against My Word you will reap torment in hell-fire, but it certainly shall not last forever, for I will try you until your sin has been purged away and then will I receive you unto Myself as a wayward son is received by his father." I mean, words like that leave no doubt whatsoever that God intends to redeem all mankind. But the Bible doesn't give us even one clear-cut affirmation of UR like that anywhere, does it? If it does, I beg you, point it out to me.
I want to believe in UR. I just haven't seen enough evidence to totally refute it, when 50% of the verses support UR while 50% of the other verses support ET. The best way I know of to diffuse a false doctrine is to systematically deconstruct it verse by verse. Let's deconstruct ET and let's start with one of the most famous verses,
Revelation 14:9-11
Now here is the Greek text for the first part of 14:11:
kai o kapnoV tou basanismou autwn eiV aiwnaV (And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever)
I don't read Greek but it looks like the bold, "autwn eiV aiwnaV" is "forever and ever". I see no Greek word "anion" so the argument, "the word, 'anion' is used, which means 'age' and it denotes just a temporary period of time with an end, not 'eternal'" I don't think can be used here. If I am wrong about the translation, please correct me.
Now let's take these verse apart, and turn it from a testimony of what appears on the surface to be a statement of certain eternal torment into one that means God will torment for only a period of time and then release the soul into His kingdom. Anyone want to start?
Hi Thrillobyte, here is Young's Literal Translation of verse 11:
Rev 14:11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.
To me "ages of ages" means TO the ages of ages or until the turning over of the Kingdom unto the Father.
Thanks for that input, trettep. Here's the Latin Vulgate from Merriam-Webster:
in sae·cu·la sae·cu·lo·rum
Function: foreign term
Etymology: Latin meaning "for ages of ages : forever and ever"
How's that for putting the wolf and the shepherd in bed together!!!
trettep, if John had meant the word, "age" wouldn't he have used the Greek, "aion" or some derivative of it?
I also examined the use of aion in the Septuagint and the book of Enoch
Quote:
don't read Greek but it looks like the bold, "autwn eiV aiwnaV" is "forever and ever".
the transcription should be autôn eis aiônas - that way it is, it looks horrible if one is familiar how it shoul be like, sry; or put it in font symbol to have correct Greek letters:
autwn eiV aiwnaV
and it's eis tous aiônas eis tôn aiônôn if I remember right, try to learn a bit Greek, at least the scripture and how to transcript, it's worth the effort
If you want a detailed analysis of all the hell verses deconstructed from a UR perspective, it has already been done in many articles. Ray Smith has a good section on it in his Lake of Fire series, starting with this part:
L. Ray Smith - Lake of Fire - Part 16-A L. Ray Smith - Lake of Fire - Part 16-B
... and there is 6 more parts specifically on the hell doctrine, including the history and pagan origins of eternal torment (just go here to find them all). We can discuss bits and pieces here, but to cover it all in a discussion forum is a bit much without first reading some of these articles.
But to simplify, most of the whole UR debate comes down to mistranslation of a couple concepts:
1. the words eternal/forever/everlasting should only have meaning of age/age of ages/pertaining to the age/eonian.
2. hell is mistranslated from 4 words: sheol/hades (meaning grave), gehenna (refering to a physical valley that used to burn garbage), tartarus (mentioned 1 time - means abyss).
Reading the above articles first would help, and we could discuss particular "problem" verses if you want. Once you understand these concepts then we can discuss what the lake of fire could represent. (Its not a literal lake or literal fire).
BUT HERE IS THE KEY ISSUE. If you are unwilling to accept that the above two concepts ("eternal" and "hell") are mistranslated in many modern bibles, then you will not be able to understand why Universal Salvation of All is 100% scriptural.
One could live in darkness while here on Earth without consequences of an eternal hell,so let me live in sin and never have to revere or turn to the Lord., I am going to Heaven anyway.
trettep, if John had meant the word, "age" wouldn't he have used the Greek, "aion" or some derivative of it?
I'm no greek person, but I'm pretty sure he did -- I think he used the plural of aion twice with the second one being genetive case which makes it possessive.
εἰς αἰῶνας αἰώνων
εἰς = into, unto, to, towards
αἰῶνας = ages
αἰώνων = ages (possesive form)
so it becomes "into ages of ages"
Hence YLT and DBY literal translations:
Rev 14:11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.
Rev 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name.
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