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You are correct. I stated I don't think the bible is word for word what is in the quotes, but that doesn't mean I believe the bible is useless.
No, what you actually said was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
Not sure if I understand your post in it's entirety but it is my contention that the bible we have today is not the same bible as the one that was given by the apostles either by oral word or written word. I believe we can't take the quotation marks around phrases to mean that person actually said those exact words as no one wrote it down right then and there. So in reference to your Matthew 4:4 verse being taken at face value. No, I don't believe it can anymore than the story of Jesus' birth can be taken at face value. Anytime someone writes about the birth of someone their own age it is hearsay as they couldn't possibly have been there and the consensus is that the bible was written down after the death of Christ.
You've made it very clear that "You think it is a good read."...Nothing more. You don't take it seriously...it's just another book to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
However, I was just asking an honest question, I sincerely haven't heard the term "John 10 person" before. I just wanted a definition so maybe I could understand the post.
...and again, I say why try explaining something to you that you will not accept as truth anyway?
You've made it very clear that "You think it is a good read."...Nothing more. You don't take it seriously...it's just another book to you.
...and again, I say why try explaining something to you that you will not accept as truth anyway?
I'm not Katjonjj but according to your post, you'd be including me too. News flash: Not believing the Bible is inerrant is not the same as saying it's just a good read. Apparently you don't get that but it's true. It's entirely possible to see the Bible in a serious light without believing in inerrancy. I personally believe in inspiration but not inerrancy. I believe the writers were inspired and had true experiences with God which probably were related through oral tradition before eventually being put on paper. I think the spirit remains but don't think every word is historically accurate. I don't think it has to be. Actually if you read the Bible and pay attention the theme is pretty obvious: God speaks to people. I think the people put it to paper.
I wasn't trying to argue the definition just wanted to know what the definition was. I don't know therefore I will have to take your word for it. Just like the definition of harsh is just the definition... not really much to argue about.
But since you want to know why I don't think Jesus' words were written word for word and the bible is hearsay....
Definition of hearsay:
Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor.
Law Evidence based on the reports of others rather than the personal knowledge of a witness and therefore generally not admissible as testimony.
An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member.
Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine.
A controversial or unorthodox opinion or doctrine, as in politics, philosophy, or science.
Adherence to such controversial or unorthodox opinion.
A controversial or unorthodox opinion or doctrine, as in politics, philosophy, or science.
Adherence to such controversial or unorthodox opinion.
You think what I believe is heresy, I think what the bible says is hearsay.
The bible was written by men who did not record it word for word as it was spoken or happened, but it was written later and in some cases by oral testimony not first-hand experience. This is the definition of hearsay.
Hearsay does not imply a belief that it does or does not speak the truth. And yes it is a book to me. It does not breathe it is an inanimate object without thought nor feeling. Therefore, I'm sure it is not offended as you are.
I'm not Katjonjj but according to your post, you'd be including me too. News flash: Not believing the Bible is inerrant is not the same as saying it's just a good read. Apparently you don't get that but it's true. It's entirely possible to see the Bible in a serious light without believing in inerrancy. I personally believe in inspiration but not inerrancy. I believe the writers were inspired and had true experiences with God which probably were related through oral tradition before eventually being put on paper. I think the spirit remains but don't think every word is historically accurate. I don't think it has to be. Actually if you read the Bible and pay attention the theme is pretty obvious: God speaks to people. I think the people put it to paper.
I guess it's an inside joke.. the John 10 person. I may have to accept not ever knowing. Oh well.. I can live with that if I must.
You probably ran across this verse in a formal meeting before but who really take it at face value when it say EVERY WORD.
EVERY WORD--make you mess with water baptism--John 3:5.
EVERY WORD--make you mess with the Sabbath teaching---Hebrews 4.
EVERY WORD--make you mess with repentance to have grace---Romans 6:1.
EVERY WORD---make you mess with the rules against jewelry and costly array--1 Peter 3:3.
EVERY WORD--make you mess with the rules with tongues---1 Cor. 14.
EVERY WORD--make you call every bible verse eternal life in Christ--Matthew 4:4.
EVERY WORD--make you mess with the rules to discourage adultery---Romans 7:2-3.
EVERY WORD--make you have a problem with women preachers and women pastors in church---1 Timothy 2:9-14.
EVERY WORD--make you offend people being sure they Christians like you ---1 Thessalonians 5:12 and 2 Cor. 6:14-17.
EVERY WORD--make you be hungry for unity with man too and not just God---John 17 and Psalms 133:1 as well as Matthew 5:6 and Gal. 1:8-9.
EVERY WORD--mean you agree that God's people not bible rookies too long---John 10 and Titus 3:10 as well as Matthew 4:4 and 2 Cor. 4:3.
EVERY WORD--make you hungry for the book to spiritually eat all over all the time ---Matthew 4:4 and Luke 4:4.
EVERY WORD--mean your relationship with God is more of a Matthew 4:4 life and not just a biography life of what man say is holy only--1 Cor. 13.
EVERY WORD--mean your intimate enough to rely on God and not some big shot all the time with the bible---James 1:5 and Matthew 15:14 as well as 2 Timothy 2:15 and Galations 1:8-9.
EVERY WORD--mean you don't feel judgmental to call the lieing enemy a lier and a child of the devil----John 8:44 and Rev. 12.
EVERY WORD--mean you don't feel condemnation to rebuke people with the bible right---James 5:19-20.
EVERY WORD--mean you not praying and believing for every person to make it with Jesus---John 17.
EVERY WORD--mean your soul winning wisely and not just ambitiously all the time---2 Cor. 6:14-17 as well as 1 Thess. 5:12 and John 17.
EVERY WORD--mean your convinced a real Christian is not a well liked Elvis Presley so much---Matthew 10:22.
EVERY WORD--make you die to philosophy if it's against the truth--Romans 3:4.
EVERY WORD---make you call the wisdom of man a filthy rag---Isaiah 64:6.
EVERY WORD---make you call any voice of God the bible only----Romans 10:17.
EVERY WORD--make you call all the bible truth----John 17:17.
EVERY WORD--make you say truth is never a philosophy--2 Peter 1:20-21
and Colossians 2:8.
EVERY WORD--make you say the one with truth always has a buddy with a lie---First John 14:6 and then John 8:44 and Rev. 12.
EVERY WORD--mean your purpose in Christ is really Matthew 4:4 and not just Exodus 20 and Ephesians 2:8.
Well this is truly manna feed from heaven for the John 10 people.
Hope I bumped into some John 10 people so the bible on unity as John 17 preaches on is reality today.
If this is accomplished then my writing and dialogue to people is not vain here.
As Paul say don't beat in the air unseemingly or in vain with nothing accomplished.
That mean I'm talking to or trying to attract John 10 people only-----2 Cor. 6:14-17.
I have to say that I believe it, because so far I have lived over a half century
and, "Every Word" (prophetic)as I understand it has either came to fruition;
or has all the signs of coming to fruition.....
But just my $.02 cents (the word of God will defend itself, I don't need to)
Last edited by yhwhshalomjr; 09-14-2009 at 10:30 PM..
I wasn't trying to argue the definition just wanted to know what the definition was. I don't know therefore I will have to take your word for it. Just like the definition of harsh is just the definition... not really much to argue about.
But since you want to know why I don't think Jesus' words were written word for word and the bible is hearsay....
Definition of hearsay:
Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor.
Law Evidence based on the reports of others rather than the personal knowledge of a witness and therefore generally not admissible as testimony.
An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member.
Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine.
A controversial or unorthodox opinion or doctrine, as in politics, philosophy, or science.
Adherence to such controversial or unorthodox opinion.
A controversial or unorthodox opinion or doctrine, as in politics, philosophy, or science.
Adherence to such controversial or unorthodox opinion.
You think what I believe is heresy, I think what the bible says is hearsay.
The bible was written by men who did not record it word for word as it was spoken or happened, but it was written later and in some cases by oral testimony not first-hand experience. This is the definition of hearsay.
Hearsay does not imply a belief that it does or does not speak the truth. And yes it is a book to me. It does not breathe it is an inanimate object without thought nor feeling. Therefore, I'm sure it is not offended as you are.
I guess I don't get it. Why would the Holy Spirit (who is the Word of God) be grieved? The bible is a book and does not contain a spirit. God's spirit does not need a book to do it's/his work.
I'm not sure why you want me to look at the word ruach... I get that it is spirit... The bible does not have a spirit. It is a book. You can always buy another one. chrematheism: (obsolete) the worship of inanimate objects as usefully divine.Guess they don't use that word anymore~
But I love the jokes on the website you listed...Jewish Humor Page, p2 (http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Humor/Jokes_Set_2/jokes_set_2.html - broken link)
I love the one entitled - A Sign from G-d
priceless!!!
I don't know...it might be hearsay......
try reading John 10 .....
Jesus calls himself "I am the good shepherd."
You know who also said he was going to "shepherd his people" ......the Sovereign LORD (Jehovah)
Psalm 23:1
[ A psalm of David. ] The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.
Psalm 28:9
Save your people and bless your inheritance; be theirshepherdand carry them forever
Psalm 80:1
[ For the director of music. To the tune of "The Lilies of the Covenant." Of Asaph. A psalm. ] Hear us, O Shepherd of Israel, you who lead Joseph like a flock; you who sit enthroned between the cherubim, shine forth
Isaiah 40:11 He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those that have young.
Ezekiel 34:15-17 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.
17 " 'As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats.
What is Jesus going to do on Judement Day......seperate the sheep from the goats.
The Jews hymnal was the psalms. They knew very well what Jesus was proclaiming when he called himself "the Good Shepherd".......
**The entire book found in the dead sea scrolls....predates 2000 yrs from the oldest manuscript known...virtually identical to todays KJV**
but hey, what did the Jews know, they only had the Books of Moses, the Psalms and the prophets...... it's hearsay
Last edited by twin.spin; 09-14-2009 at 11:57 PM..
I don't know...it might be hearsay......
try reading John 10 .....
Jesus calls himself "I am the good shepherd."
You know who also said he was going to "shepherd his people" ......the Sovereign LORD (Jehovah)
Psalm 23:1
[ A psalm of David. ] The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.
Psalm 28:9
Save your people and bless your inheritance; be theirshepherdand carry them forever
Psalm 80:1
[ For the director of music. To the tune of "The Lilies of the Covenant." Of Asaph. A psalm. ] Hear us, O Shepherd of Israel, you who lead Joseph like a flock; you who sit enthroned between the cherubim, shine forth
Isaiah 40:11 He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those that have young.
Ezekiel 34:15-17 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.
17 " 'As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats.
What is Jesus going to do on Judement Day......seperate the sheep from the goats.
The Jews hymnal was the psalms. They knew very well what Jesus was proclaiming when he called himself "the Good Shepherd".......
but hey, what did the Jews know ...... it's hearsay
So, those who call themselves a "John 10 person" are the sheep?
Ok... that makes sense I guess...
BTW- I don't believe in the futuristic end times...but thank you for your answer.
You seem like the best person fitting in here.
How important is unity with John 10 people to you?
Is the Holy Spirit addressing this matter to you in 1 Thess. 5:12 and 2 Cor. 6:14-17?
Are you content with individual perfection in Christ or are you hungry for genuine unity with John 10 people actually bumping into each other like never before?
Is Matthew 5:6 addressing anything on this to you ?
The world don't know the difference between a saint and unbeliever cause they give up smoking and lend you five dollars too. They'll give you the shirt off their back if they like you also. They apologize and don't cuss also. They live without swearing and cheering on a fist fight or cuss word fight. The stay married faithful for 20 years and bring their paycheck home. They have the admiration of the world with trophies and biography books too. They also raise up wonderful children and grandchildren and their some of the best cooks also. Unbelievers get job promotions and pay raises as well and have miracle healings of the body too. Their faith can see 5 or 10 years down the road and start a successful company to own and pass on to their family also. They keep the pounds off and stay on treadmill machines too. They read the bible, fast and pay tithes all the time also. They preach, speak in tongues and play on the piano all the time too. They pass out 1,000 tracts and come to a meeting all the time.
Just tell them Jesus Christ is a personal experience and not an EVERY WORD applied bible life and their Christian evidence is there. Is that right?
Matthew 4:4 exposes the whole bible when you can't know the difference between a Christian and a good Tom and good Linda only today.
Nobody can mess with Matthew 4:4 without messing with John 3:5 and
Hebrews 4 if they really a John 10 person or Christian. Same true with other despised verses like 1 Peter 3:3 and Romans 7:2-3 and Romans 12:17 and 1 Timothy 6 also, etc.
Well the energy is not about bad mouthing the unbelievers. It's really about uniting with John 10 people when it's not so obvious. Otherwise we wasting time fooling with John 17 and Amos 3:3 as well as 2 Cor. 6:14-17
and Psalms 133:1 today.
Must be some folks like us hungry to see this with Matthew 5:6 coming to mind when we fool with 1 Peter 3:3 and John 3:5, etc.
I know we're going to be labeled religion pushy on folks and just plain judgmental for defending the despised areas of the bible by so called John 10 people or Christians.
Leave it up to them it's a cuss word to call a lier a lier---John 8:44. When Jesus and John did so first.
Unity only phony for a Christian unless they can get with folks messing with Hebrews 4 and John 3:5 for what it say only. That's just the spirit of a John 10 person and not a John 8:44 person confused too long.
How much agreeable are we with the book right?
Nobody can't deny the atonement of Jesus doing the greatest miracle ever where he comes out the grave guarded over and come back in 3 days like he said while ascending back into heaven too at the same time. They can discredit him but can't ignorantly deny him as Lord even though they really deny him anyway. No saint can and no child of the devil can. That mean the proof of a saint go way behind the belief in the atonement of Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by virtue_summer
I'm not Katjonjj but according to your post, you'd be including me too. News flash: Not believing the Bible is inerrant is not the same as saying it's just a good read. Apparently you don't get that but it's true. It's entirely possible to see the Bible in a serious light without believing in inerrancy. I personally believe in inspiration but not inerrancy. I believe the writers were inspired and had true experiences with God which probably were related through oral tradition before eventually being put on paper. I think the spirit remains but don't think every word is historically accurate. I don't think it has to be. Actually if you read the Bible and pay attention the theme is pretty obvious: God speaks to people. I think the people put it to paper.
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You are correct. I stated I don't think the bible is word for word what is in the quotes, but that doesn't mean I believe the bible is useless.
Oh well.. I can live with that if I must. 
(the word of God will defend itself, I don't need to)
