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I can understand your aversion to a theology of retribution.
It does not (IMHO) communicate a doctrine of Love.
However, I question the effectiveness of a doctrine of universal salvation.
For example, would the Love of Christ impress an unrepentant, prideful, self reliant and violent individual?
That is not the point. If someone does not receive the message of the Good news they are not to be force converted. We are not supposed to try and make them believe, if they are not willing to receive it they are not elected to this office. We are only to knock the dust from our heels and carry on to the next town.
In my opinion its that type of thought process that has everything messed up. As if we are supposed to force the whole world to convert by "whatever means necessary". This thought extends to keeping people afraid even after they have "converted" to control them and assist in keeping them dependent on the institution of the organized Church system.
If you for any other reason than you love God and Christ, and if you resist sin for any other reason than you are convicted by the holy spirit of the error of sin, then you are not walking in the spirit of Christ. Believing because of fear, and resisting sin because of fear, are fascist control mechanisms of human institutions. God is not a fascist ...
1 John 4:18
"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."
If you are afraid of eternal torment, you are not perfect(complete) in love, and God is love. If you are spreading terror and fear of torment for eternity, you are not casting away fear, instead you are denying the true lord God who bought you and putting into bondage the minds and spirits of your fellows as the wicked servant is said to do by Jesus himself.
That is not the point. If someone does not receive the message of the Good news they are not to be force converted. We are not supposed to try and make them believe, if they are not willing to receive it they are not elected to this office. We are only to knock the dust from our heels and carry on to the next town.
In my opinion its that type of thought process that has everything messed up. As if we are supposed to force the whole world to convert by "whatever means necessary". This thought extends to keeping people afraid even after they have "converted" to control them and assist in keeping them dependent on the institution of the organized Church system.
If you for any other reason than you love God and Christ, and if you resist sin for any other reason than you are convicted by the holy spirit of the error of sin, then you are not walking in the spirit of Christ. Believing because of fear, and resisting sin because of fear, are fascist control mechanisms of human institutions. God is not a fascist ...
1 John 4:18
"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."
If you are afraid of eternal torment, you are not perfect(complete) in love, and God is love. If you are spreading terror and fear of torment for eternity, you are not casting away fear, instead you are denying the true lord God who bought you and putting into bondage the minds and spirits of your fellows as the wicked servant is said to do by Jesus himself.
Well said, Ironmaw . . . I'm all out of reps for you too.
Well said, Ironmaw . . . I'm all out of reps for you too.
Can you only rep someone so many times? That is not fair!
I agree! Good post.
Also, Someone posted this passage in another thread and I noticed how it is that Paul preached the gospel to the Greeks with their "unknown god":
Acts 17: 22-31
22Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you. 24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."
God is explained as being above all gods, and therefore idols. God did it so men would seek him because they are his offspring. For it is by God that "we live and move and have our being."
Then since we are God's offspring we don't need idols.
They objected to the raising of a man from the dead but did not have a problem with the judgment part. In fact, Paul makes the statement that you will be judged, but he doesn't say that if you don't believe in God you will be judged. There is no threat, no fear of hell in his words. Just simple truth... here is the unknown god, God, and he is your Father. If you are his children you have no need for idols but judgment comes through Christ. The proof of his judgment is that he was raised from the dead.
How does his being raised from the dead prove his judgment was eternal damnation? It seems more like it proves that his judgment is that we should all be raised into life as children of God.
That is not the point. If someone does not receive the message of the Good news they are not to be force converted. We are not supposed to try and make them believe, if they are not willing to receive it they are not elected to this office. We are only to knock the dust from our heels and carry on to the next town.
In my opinion its that type of thought process that has everything messed up. As if we are supposed to force the whole world to convert by "whatever means necessary". This thought extends to keeping people afraid even after they have "converted" to control them and assist in keeping them dependent on the institution of the organized Church system.
If you for any other reason than you love God and Christ, and if you resist sin for any other reason than you are convicted by the holy spirit of the error of sin, then you are not walking in the spirit of Christ. Believing because of fear, and resisting sin because of fear, are fascist control mechanisms of human institutions. God is not a fascist ...
1 John 4:18
"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."
If you are afraid of eternal torment, you are not perfect(complete) in love, and God is love. If you are spreading terror and fear of torment for eternity, you are not casting away fear, instead you are denying the true lord God who bought you and putting into bondage the minds and spirits of your fellows as the wicked servant is said to do by Jesus himself.
I'm confused.
My response did not imply a doctrine of retribution.
I'm speaking of a doctrine of grace and mercy.
The grace and mercy that one can only appreciate in the light of perfect Love.
( as oppossed to the darkness of sin )
I'm confused.
My response did not imply a doctrine of retribution.
I'm speaking of a doctrine of grace and mercy.
The grace and mercy that one can only appreciate in the light of perfect Love.
( as oppossed to the darkness of sin )
The doctrine of grace and mercy is the gift from God that keeps on giving, regardless of the darkness of sin..That is the light of perfect love, which although we strive to have, will not be ours in this life of flesh..
I'm confused.
My response did not imply a doctrine of retribution.
I'm speaking of a doctrine of grace and mercy.
The grace and mercy that one can only appreciate in the light of perfect Love.
( as oppossed to the darkness of sin )
This was what you said ...
Quote:
posted by Oakback
However, I question the effectiveness of a doctrine of universal salvation.
For example, would the Love of Christ impress an unrepentant, prideful, self reliant and violent individual?
What do you mean by effective? The Gospel is not a sales pitch. Being a member of the bride of Christ is not like being in social club. We as believers are not recruiting or headhunting, as it were. We are spreading the good news of Christ reconciling the world to God. We are planting seed, that only God can bring to bloom. We are working in the field, but it is not up to us to deal with the weeds. God will deal with them in due season. The election of the body of Christ is not for everyone. Salvation and election are different things, that is why God is the savior of all men, especially those that believe.
I can understand your aversion to a theology of retribution.
It does not (IMHO) communicate a doctrine of Love.
However, I question the effectiveness of a doctrine of universal salvation.
For example, would the Love of Christ impress an unrepentant, prideful, self reliant and violent individual?
I am reading this and really truly puzzled. Since when is self reliance a sin or something bad?! I've never heard of such a thing.
I am reading this and really truly puzzled. Since when is self reliance a sin or something bad?! I've never heard of such a thing.
I spent many many years being duped by my old fashioned frontier belief that self reliance and self sufficiency was a virtue.
It's a delusion.
It only allowed me to build up a crust that neither man nor God could penetrate.
The realization that I was not God, that I was not ruler of my universe, allowed ( or should I say forced ) me to become vulnerable enough to trust God.
What about if we tell them God loves them and only threaten them with ET if they reject what we believe ? Does that make us compassionate terrorists ? Can we get away with doing that ?.
Funny funny funny! Humans love to scare themselves.
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