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Like many, you pick and choose verses that make you feel good and comfortable, and then misuse them, and you reject those passages that you don't like. I won't waste my time putting up the passages that tell you that you must believe, because like all universalists, you just ignore them. The Bible makes it clear that there are going to many people who are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire. You reject that, and so you will simply have to find out the hard way.
I've posted scriptures concerning the Gospel and I've proclaimed what it accomplished for us. You believe it's accomplished nothing. I believe exactly what it says: That Christ died for our sins and was resurrected for our justification. I'm sorry you do not believe the Gospel. I'll pray for you .
I've posted scriptures concerning the Gospel and I've proclaimed what it accomplished for us. You believe it's accomplished nothing. I believe exactly what it says: That Christ died for our sins and was resurrected for our justification. I'm sorry you do not believe the Gospel. I'll pray for you .
Do you agree with the Bible that you must believe in Christ in order to be saved, and that you must believe in Him this side of death? Or do you disagree with the Bible and maintain that everyone will be saved regardless of whether they believe in Him or not; again, this side of death? Do you maintain that the Bible doesn't say that you must believe in Christ this side of death?
Do you agree with the Bible that you must believe in Christ in order to be saved, and that you must believe in Him this side of death? Or do you disagree with the Bible and maintain that everyone will be saved regardless of whether they believe in Him or not; again, this side of death? Do you maintain that the Bible doesn't say that you must believe in Christ this side of death?
Mike - I'll give you an answer related to your question (and I don't have to bold to do it ).
The reason I believe God deals with people on the "other side" is this: Nobody has obeyed Him by that point. "Obey what?" you say...
Is it true that God will not tolerate any sin in His presence? Is it true that He commanded us to "be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect"? Is there anyone out there who can claim that the work of the cross has so thoroughly been applied to them that they have no remnent of flesh in their lives?
I don't know about you, but I've been blessed to know a few that were wholly enveloped in His life - fully consecrated to His will, cried out even in what others would say was a perfect life for more of His fire to burn out all that was not His life in them...
...and they died. They would tell you that it cannot be attained here - the glory of His perfection would manifest itself in such a way if there were one person on this planet that truly was "filled with the Spirit"... no, there's not enough fire in this life to perfect a man.
But it shall be done; his works (nature) shall be burned, but he himself shall be saved. That's how I see it, and you're free to disagree - but my view of God is Holy, and the stuff being buried in our graveyards even close.
Do you agree with the Bible that you must believe in Christ in order to be saved,
First and foremost, the Bible does not say that one must believe in Christ in order to be saved.
The answer to your false gospel is: NO!
Now, must one be believing in Christ to be saved? YES!
Do you understand the difference between the two? Our sins were imputed to Christ and forgiven at the cross. Our Justification occurred in Christ's resurrection and His righteousness was imputed to us. However, we experience regeneration and possess salvation in time, when we believe the Gospel.
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and that you must believe in Him this side of death?
The scriptures are silent as to when the Spirit regenerates and places Gospel faith in the heart. (John 3:8) However, the scriptures are not silent to the fact that it will happen for all (1 Tim 2:3-4)
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Or do you disagree with the Bible and maintain that everyone will be saved regardless of whether they believe in Him or not;
All will believe in Jesus, come to a full knowledge of the truth, be reconciled to God and be saved! That is scriptural. And no, you cannot possess salvation without believing in Christ! They are inseparable.
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again, this side of death? Do you maintain that the Bible doesn't say that you must believe in Christ this side of death?
Again, the scriptures are silent as to when the Holy Spirit regenerates and places Gospel faith in the heart. But you cannot be saved unless you are believing in Christ. Again, salvation and believing are inseparable.
Mike - I'll give you an answer related to your question (and I don't have to bold to do it ).
The reason I believe God deals with people on the "other side" is this: Nobody has obeyed Him by that point. "Obey what?" you say...
Is it true that God will not tolerate any sin in His presence? Is it true that He commanded us to "be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect"? Is there anyone out there who can claim that the work of the cross has so thoroughly been applied to them that they have no remnent of flesh in their lives?
I don't know about you, but I've been blessed to know a few that were wholly enveloped in His life - fully consecrated to His will, cried out even in what others would say was a perfect life for more of His fire to burn out all that was not His life in them...
...and they died. They would tell you that it cannot be attained here - the glory of His perfection would manifest itself in such a way if there were one person on this planet that truly was "filled with the Spirit"... no, there's not enough fire in this life to perfect a man.
But it shall be done; his works (nature) shall be burned, but he himself shall be saved. That's how I see it, and you're free to disagree - but my view of God is Holy, and the stuff being buried in our graveyards even close.
I like the colors.
The issue is this. Christ paid the penalty for every sin in the human race that would ever be commited. That removed sin as an issue in salvation, in that all sin was judged. However, though sin was judged, it was not forgiven. There is a difference. Because the barrier of sin was removed, that resulted in the universal reconciliation of man to God. In other words, God the Father was satisfied with the substitutionary spiritual death of Christ on the Cross. But, and it is a BIG but, universal reconciliation is Not universal salvation, because man is free by God's sovereign decision to either believe or reject the work of Christ on the Cross. This is shown time after time by all the verses that flat out tell you that you must believe. And that if you don't believe, you remain under condemnation. And the nature of that condemnation is eternal separation from God, and eternal torment in the lake of fire forever.
John 8:24 states it as clearly as it can be stated. ''...unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.'' The work of salvation on the part of Christ is not applied to a person unless that person believes in Christ.
And as far as the believers sin is concerned, 1 John 1:9 tells you, again in no uncertain terms, that as a believer, your sins are not forgiven, until you name them to God. ''If we acknowledge our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.'' Why can God forgive the sin when the believer names it? Because it was previously judged on the Cross. Therefore, sin is not an issue for the believer in maintaining salvation, but rather it is an issue only in that it puts you under divine discipline. ''For whom the Lord loves, He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives.'' Heb. 12:6. It is a family matter.
But going back to the unbeliever, salvation is conditional. It is contingent on making that most important decision to believe. God wants you to come to Him of your own free will. He will not force anyone to believe in Him. He would get no glory from that. And His righteousness will not allow anyone into His presence who chose to reject Christ as Savior while they were alive on the earth. The very reason He created man and placed him on earth, and gives him a certain amount of time on this earth, is so man can make that decision. Once a person departs from this life, his opportunity to choose, has passed, and he must then face the consequences of failure to accept Christ as Savior. The Bible is absolutely clear on this.
But universalists, say it isn't so. They deny what the Bible says, for whatever reason. And it is the epitome of arrogance, to do so. Instead of taking the Bible at its word, they try to apply human reason to the matter and say that a loving God couldn't possibly sentence anyone to eternal torment. But again, the Word of God says that He does.
In teaching universal salvation, the universalist lures people into not making the necessary decision to believe in Christ. And as a result, those people who fail to believe, remain under condemnation. And the universalist either has no idea how monstrous that is, or he does, he doesn't care.
Your view is wrong. And you are disagreeing with the word of God. And you will continue to do so.
Ok, it's late but I'll give you something else to chew on:
I've heard some on this forum say that it's God's will that all men be saved, but they won't. Your God - does He do all His pleasure, or does scripture lie?
Ok, it's late but I'll give you something else to chew on:
I've heard some on this forum say that it's God's will that all men be saved, but they won't. Your God - does He do all His pleasure, or does scripture lie?
God's desire is for all men to be saved. But not apart from the requirement of believing in Christ. What is wrong with you people that you can't get it through your heads, that the Bible tells you time after time after time, that you must believe in Christ or you will die in your sins. A mud brick would understand this.
God's desire is for all men to be saved. But not apart from the requirement of believing in Christ. What is wrong with you people that you can't get it through your heads, that the Bible tells you time after time after time, that you must believe in Christ or you will die in your sins. A mud brick would understand this.
The reason you feel we're less than "mud bricks", is that (IMO) you hold to the traditional doctrines of Arminianism concerning the atonement, imputation, sanctification, free will, grace, justification, original sin, election and a host of other issues. As a modified Calvinist, a Universal Calvinist , I do not hold to your doctrinal positions. I believe the doctrines you espouse are in-fact another Gospel, outside the faith shown in scripture and make void the work of Christ that He accomplished for us on the cross. From what I've been able to gather from your posts, you do not truly believe what Christ accomplished for us in the Gospel. Not yet anyway . But I'll continue to pray for you!
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 11-19-2009 at 10:51 PM..
Reason: added text to tone it down
[color=Blue]First and foremost, the Bible does not say that one must believe in Christ in order to be saved.
The answer to your false gospel is: NO!
Now, must one be believing in Christ to be saved? YES!
Do you understand the difference between the two? Our sins were imputed to Christ and forgiven at the cross. Our Justification occurred in Christ's resurrection and His righteousness was imputed to us. However, we experience regeneration and possess salvation in time, when we believe the Gospel.
Sin was not forgiven at the Cross. It was judged. Pre-salvation sins are forgiven at the point of faith in Christ. John 8:24 tells you plainly that if you do not believe in Christ, then you will die in your sins.
John 8:24 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.''
Furthermore, as a believer, your sins are only forgiven when you name them to God.
I John 1:9 ''If we acknowledge our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.''
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The scriptures are silent as to when the Spirit regenerates and places Gospel faith in the heart. (John 3:8) However, the scriptures are not silent to the fact that it will happen for all (1 Tim 2:3-4) All will believe in Jesus, come to a full knowledge of the truth, be reconciled to God and be saved! That is scriptural. And no, you cannot possess salvation without believing in Christ! They are inseparable.
1 Tim 2:4 ''who desires all men be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.''
Of course God desires all men to be saved. But not apart from the conditions of salvation. And those conditions are that you must hear the Gospel and believe what it says concerning Christ. And if you choose not to believe, then you remain in your sins, and will die in your sins. (John 8:24)
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Again, the scriptures are silent as to when the Holy Spirit regenerates and places Gospel faith in the heart. But you cannot be saved unless you are believing in Christ. Again, salvation and believing are inseparable.
Regeneration occurs at the point of faith in Christ. Jesus told Nicodemus that ''you must be born again.'' (John 3:7)
And when and to whom does regeneration occur?
John 3:15 ''that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life.''
Regeneration occurs at the moment that a person believes in Christ.
''WHOEVER'' makes it clear that there are those who will NOT believe.
We are told that Christ came into the world that the world should be saved through Him, but that there will be those who reject the offer of salvation.
John 3:17 ''For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.''
And then in the very next verse, we are told that some will believe, and some won't.
John 3:18 ''He who believes in Him is not judged; He who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
1 John 5:11 ''And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12) He who has the Son has the life; he who does ot have the Son of God does not have the life.'' (Only those who believe in Christ have eternal life. The work of Christ on the cross applys only to those who believe. And that belief must occur while you are alive on this earth, On this side of death.)
Hebrews 9:27 ''And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment.''
And what is the judgment?
Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who can kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.''
Revelation 20:14 ''...This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15) And if anyones name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Now, anyone who cannot recognize the Biblical revelation that those who do not believe in Christ will be cast into the lake of fire forever, is living a fools fantasy, and is in total denial of the truth.
Sin was not forgiven at the Cross. It was judged. Pre-salvation sins are forgiven at the point of faith in Christ. John 8:24 tells you plainly that if you do not believe in Christ, then you will die in your sins.
John 8:24 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.''
John 8:24 doesn't say: "If you don't believe I died for your sins you will die in your sins."
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1 Tim 2:4 ''who desires all men be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.''
Of course God desires all men to be saved. But not apart from the conditions of salvation. And those conditions are that you must hear the Gospel and believe what it says concerning Christ. And if you choose not to believe, then you remain in your sins, and will die in your sins. (John 8:24)
Of course God desires all men to be saved. But not apart from the conditions of salvation which is Christ ransoming them (1 Tim.2:6).
God does all He desires
Isa 46:10 Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying, `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.'"
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Revelation 20:14 ''...This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15) And if anyones name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Now, anyone who cannot recognize the Biblical revelation that those who do not believe in Christ will be cast into the lake of fire forever, is living a fools fantasy, and is in total denial of the truth.
It does not say they are cast into the lake of fire for not believing in Christ. It says however they are judged for their ACTS.
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