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1) The first heaven is the band of atmosphere surrounding the earth. I kings 14:11.
2) The second heaven is the stellar universe. Deuternomy 4:9. This is the habitation of most of the angels.
3) The third heaven is the throne room of God. 2 Corinthians 12:2-4: Eph. 4:10.
2 Cor. 12:2-4I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
Paul was speaking of himself, who fourteen years earlier, had been taken up into heaven, in the spirit and shown things that he was not permitted to speak of. And to keep him from becoming arrogant because of what had been revealed to him, he was given a thorn in his side. 2 Cor. 12:7.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God (bene ha Elohem-angels) came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7) And the LORD said to Satan, ''From where do you come?'' Then Satan answered the LORD and said, ''From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.''
From time to time, the angels journey into the third Heaven-the throne room of God, to present themselves in angelic convocations.
God dwells in Heaven, which is a literal place which has always existed through out all eternity. God is also omnipresent, which means that He is everywhere. And yet, He is not said to indwell the body of the unbeliever.
During the dispensation of the church, all three members of the Trinity, God the Father, God the Son-Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit, manifest themselves in a special way, called indwelling. They are said to indwell the body of the believer. Each indwells for a specific purpose. For instance, God the Holy Spirit indwells the Body of the believer to make the believers body, a temple for the indwelling of Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 6:19)
In previous dispensations, none of the members of the Godhead indwelt the body of any Old Testament saint. There was the Enduement of the Holy Spirit, but that was not indwelling.
The purpose of the indwelling of Jesus Christ is to serve as a sign for the royal family of God and is designed to provide confidence for the believer to advance to spiritual maturity (Gal 2:20). It is also a guarantee of eternal security.
Not only does Christ indwell the body of the believer, but the believer is in union with Christ through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. When a person in the church age believes in Christ, God the Holy Spirit places that person into an eternal union with Christ. 1 Cor. 12:13 ''For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.'' As a result of being in union with Christ, the believer shares the eternal life of Christ, His righteousness, His Sonship, His heirship, His priesthood, and His destiny.
Jesus Christ is currently seated at the right hand of God the Father in Heaven.
Hebrews 8:1 ''Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens.''
In summary, the third heaven is the throne room of God which is a realm separate and distinct from the stellar universe. Jesus Christ is currently seated at the right hand of God the Father, and at the same time, indwells the body of the believer.
John 14:1-4 ''Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2) ''In My Father's house are many dwelling places; (there are not many dwelling places in the believers body. This is a reference to Heaven- In My Father's house); if it were not so, I would have told you: for I go to prepare a place for you. 3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.4) And you know the way where I am going.''
This is the first mention in the New Testament, and by Christ Himself, of the pre-Tribulational rapture of the church into Heaven.
OMGoodness.....I am going to reiterate what I said earlier.....you obviously have absolutely no clue what it means to be IN CHRIST.
1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
2 Cor 6:16.....For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
"I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM;
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Ep 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
I have yet read anything in the Bible that speaks of a stealthy rapture of believers prior to a millennium. Read God's descriptions of that day,
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God
Matthew 24:27
For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Jesus has his return "the coming of the Son of Man" occuring with "the feast" of the OT believers "Abraham, Isaac and Jacob".
Matthew 24:27
For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man
Matthew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from theeastand the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
Luke 13:29
People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.
Only one coming of Jesus is mentioned (not after two) that all nations are gathered, seperated and the invintation to the believers is offered.
Matthew 24:27
For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Matthew 25:31-32
[ The Sheep and the Goats ] "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
One return of Christ not two returns:
One destruction of Jerusalem,
One invintation to the feast by God that follows a return of Christ
One combination of NT believers (north, south, east west) and OT Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
There is no distinction or mention of multiple returns, when at the return (singular) "The day of the Lord" as Peter describes "That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat." 2 Peter 3:12. There is no Biblical basis in a left behind for anyone.
Last edited by twin.spin; 12-08-2009 at 10:08 AM..
12-08-2009, 01:04 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
The very first mention of the pretributional rapture was made by Christ Himself in John 14:1-4 ''Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2) In My Fathers house (Heaven) are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also 4) And you know the way where I am going.''
Jesus told His disciples that He was going to prepare a place for them (for every church age believer) and that He would RETURN and RECEIVE them to Himself. That is, He would take them back to Heaven where the dwelling places were prepared for them. Philippians 3:20 ''For our citizenship is in Heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21) who will transform our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory...''
Now when Christ returns at the second Advent, He does not go back to Heaven. He stays on the earth and sets up His Millennial Kingdom. If the rapture took place at His second Advent, then the disciples (and the church as a whole) would not be going up into Heaven to the prepared dwelling places that Christ had promised them.
Now, regarding the appearing of Christ, His second coming includes both His coming to the clouds in order to rapture His church, and then His actual touching down on the Mount of Olives, some seven years later.
quote
Taken together the N.T. teachings concerning the return of Jesus Christ may be summarized as follows:
(1) The return of Christ is an event, not a process, and is personal and corporeal (Mt.23:39; 24:30; 25:31; Mk.14:62; Lk.17:24; Jn.14:3; Acts 1:11; Phil.3:20-21; 1 Th.4:14-17).
(2) His coming has a threefold relation; to the Church, to Israel, and to the nations:
(a) To the Church, the descent of the Lord into the air, to raise believers who have died and to change the living Christians, is a constant expectation and hope (1 Cor. 15:51-52; Phil. 3:20; 1 Th. 1:10; 4:13-17; 1 Tim. 6:14; Ti. 2:13; Rev. 22:20),
(b) To Israel, the return of the Lord to the earth is to accomplish the yet unfulfilled prophecies of Israel's national regathering, conversion, and establishment in peace and power under the Davidic Covenant (2 Sam.7:16, note; cp. Acts 15:14-17 with Zech.14:1-9), See Kingdom (O.T.), 2 Sam.7:8-17; Zech. 12:8, note; (N.T.), Lk.1:31-33; 1 Cor. 15:24, note.
(c) To the Gentile nations, the return of Christ is to bring the destruction of the present political world system (Dan. 2:34-35; Rev.19:11, note), and the judment of Mt.25:31-46, followed by world-wide Gentile conversion and participation in the blessings of the Kingdom (Isa. 2:2-4; 11:10; 60:3; Zech. 8:3, 20-23; 14:16-21).
unquote
(New Scofield Reference Bible, footnote for Acts. 1:11, p. 1161)
In 2 Tim 4:8 the phrase 'on that day' refers to the judgment seat of Christ that follows the rapture of the church and takes place in Heaven.
Now, regarding the 'Day of the Lord,' It is a common mistake to equate the 'Day of the Lord' as beginning with the second advent of Christ. That is, the day in which He actually touches down on the Mount of Olives. It actually includes far more than that. The Day of the Lord refers to a coming time of judgment. It refers to a period of time that involves God's direct judgment on the world. When the rapture of the church occurs, it begins the time of the Day of the Lord. It includes not only the Tribulation, but the entire thousand year reign of Christ on the earth.
The Day of the Lord is not only about judgment, but also refers to Millennial blessings as is shown in the prophecies of Zephaniah 3:9-20.
There are many references to the day of the Lord. Isa.2:12-21; 13:9-16; 34:1-8; Joel 1:15-2:11, 28-32; 3:9-12; Zech. 14:1; Amos 5:18-20; Obad. 15-17; Zeph. 1:7-18; 1 Thess 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10-13; 2 Peter 3:8; Matt 24:32-25:13.
Notice that in 2 Peter 3:10-13, the Day of the Lord also includes the destruction of the present earth and heavens after the Millennium, and the creation of a new heavens and earth.
The day of the Lord then, actually covers a period of time that spans more than one thousand and seven years. And it is the pre-Tribulation rapture that opens this period of the Day of the Lord.
Mike, it ia amazing how you cannot just stick to the verse that I posted on???? You posting all this stuff does not negate II Tim.4:8 from talking about the 2nd Coming and not the rapture.
Yes, the Day of the Lord can encompass different aspects ---- SO WHAT! This verse is talikng about the 2nd Coming aspect.
Follow the Context:
Verse 4:1,
Jesus will judgethe living and the dead at His APPEARING and KINGDOM.
There is no invisible secret coming and His Kingdom is not set up until after the tribulation - JUST AS YOU SAID:
'Now when Christ returns at the second Advent, He does not go back to Heaven. He stays on the earth and sets up His Millennial Kingdom.'
Verse 4:8,
'...which the Lord the righteouse Judge will give to me on that Day...'
This is not the rapture. Clearly this is the 2nd coming not the rapture.
How can you be so dishonest and biased? It is amazing how you twist everything to fit the pre-trib framework and how you obfuscate the simple teaching of this verse with a bunck of pre-trib clutter about other supposed proof texts. It is as if you do not want to deal with it so you just sling shot a bunch of stuff to muddy the waters.
I will deal with John 14 and Phil.3:20 in a new thread - your take is lacking insight.
You know...if all you ever believe, or get, or gather, or retain from the Bible is : "Every knee shall bow bow and every tongue will confess...guess what? EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE WILL CONFESS. Why fight it?
Mike, it ia amazing how you cannot just stick to the verse that I posted on???? You posting all this stuff does not negate II Tim.4:8 from talking about the 2nd Coming and not the rapture.
Yes, the Day of the Lord can encompass different aspects ---- SO WHAT! This verse is talikng about the 2nd Coming aspect.
Follow the Context:
Verse 4:1,
Jesus will judgethe living and the dead at His APPEARING and KINGDOM.
There is no invisible secret coming and His Kingdom is not set up until after the tribulation - JUST AS YOU SAID:
'Now when Christ returns at the second Advent, He does not go back to Heaven. He stays on the earth and sets up His Millennial Kingdom.'
Verse 4:8,
'...which the Lord the righteouse Judge will give to me on that Day...'
This is not the rapture. Clearly this is the 2nd coming not the rapture.
How can you be so dishonest and biased? It is amazing how you twist everything to fit the pre-trib framework and how you obfuscate the simple teaching of this verse with a bunck of pre-trib clutter about other supposed proof texts. It is as if you do not want to deal with it so you just sling shot a bunch of stuff to muddy the waters.
I will deal with John 14 and Phil.3:20 in a new thread - your take is lacking insight.
Don't be confused by the word 'appearing' in both 2 Tim 4:1 and 4:8. 2 Tim 4:8 is not the second advent. The crown of righteousness that is being awarded takes place at the judgment or bema seat of Christ. And that is in Heaven during the tribulation that is taking place on the earth. 'On that day,' is a reference to the judgment seat of Christ. The judgment seat of Christ takes place After the rapture, and before the second advent of Christ.
Now when Christ returns at the second advent there will be judgment. All unbelievers will be cast off the earth and into the lake of fire as per Matthew 25:31:46. And there will be a resurrection. It just won't be the church, as the church will have been resurrected or raptured seven years earlier as per 1 Thess. 4:14-17. The ones who will be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation are the Old Testament saints, and the Tribulational martyrs as per Revelation 20:4
You need to distinguish between the coming of the Lord to the clouds in the air for the purpose of terminating the church age and taking the entire church into Heaven, and His second advent when He returns all the way to the earth to set up His Millennial kingdom. The Lords coming for the catching up of the church for the purpose of being evaluated for rewards and the wedding preparation of the bride in Heaven, is entirely different from His coming at the second advent for the purpose of judging the nations and setting up His Millennial kingdom. But you can't make that distinction as long as you hold to that false belief about a post-tribulation rapture.
12-08-2009, 09:36 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Don't be confused by the word 'appearing' in both 2 Tim 4:1 and 4:8. 2 Tim 4:8 is not the second advent. The crown of righteousness that is being awarded takes place at the judgment or bema seat of Christ. And that is in Heaven during the tribulation that is taking place on the earth. 'On that day,' is a reference to the judgment seat of Christ. The judgment seat of Christ takes place After the rapture, and before the second advent of Christ.
Now when Christ returns at the second advent there will be judgment. All unbelievers will be cast off the earth and into the lake of fire as per Matthew 25:31:46. And there will be a resurrection. It just won't be the church, as the church will have been resurrected or raptured seven years earlier as per 1 Thess. 4:14-17. The ones who will be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation are the Old Testament saints, and the Tribulational martyrs as per Revelation 20:4
You need to distinguish between the coming of the Lord to the clouds in the air for the purpose of terminating the church age and taking the entire church into Heaven, and His second advent when He returns all the way to the earth to set up His Millennial kingdom. The Lords coming for the catching up of the church for the purpose of being evaluated for rewards and the wedding preparation of the bride in Heaven, is entirely different from His coming at the second advent for the purpose of judging the nations and setting up His Millennial kingdom. But you can't make that distinction as long as you hold to that false belief about a post-tribulation rapture.
You really do not need to explain the Pre-trib position to me I was pre-trib for 15 yrs. Basically you just restate stuff. OK. Nice Try.
OMGoodness.....I am going to reiterate what I said earlier.....you obviously have absolutely no clue what it means to be IN CHRIST.
1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
2 Cor 6:16.....For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
"I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM;
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Ep 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
We are Gods dwelling place....the New Jerusalem.
Believers are not the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is a city which is currently in Heaven and will remain in Heaven until after the Millennial Kingdom has come to a close. Revelation 21. The New Jerusalem is identified with the church because that will be the place of habitation of the church.
The fact that the church age believer is indwelt by the members of the Godhead does not mean that the believer is God's dwelling place. I am assuming that you mean that you think that God is only in the believer and no where else. The indwelling of any of the three Persons of the Trinity is a special manifestation of their presence for a specific purpose. God is infinite and is everywhere. But the third Heaven is His throneroom and is where the humanity of Christ is now seated at the right hand of God the Father.
I once too believed that the rapture was coming soon...now Ive realized its all a lie.
I'm a former Christian...been for almost all my life until recently.
I once too went from door to door preaching gods word and salvation but today I dont believe in that god.
Reading and questioning the Bible made me realize how wrong I was about my beliefs.
Im not certain of how we got here but I am 100% certain that the rapture will never take place...ever.
I once too believed that the rapture was coming soon...now Ive realized its all a lie.
I'm a former Christian...been for almost all my life until recently.
I once too went from door to door preaching gods word and salvation but today I dont believe in that god.
Reading and questioning the Bible made me realize how wrong I was about my beliefs.
Im not certain of how we got here but I am 100% certain that the rapture will never take place...ever.
Welcome to the forum, LA Cienega! Sorry to hear that you have lost your faith....what can we do to help?
Believers are not the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is a city which is currently in Heaven and will remain in Heaven until after the Millennial Kingdom has come to a close. Revelation 21. The New Jerusalem is identified with the church because that will be the place of habitation of the church.
The fact that the church age believer is indwelt by the members of the Godhead does not mean that the believer is God's dwelling place. I am assuming that you mean that you think that God is only in the believer and no where else. The indwelling of any of the three Persons of the Trinity is a special manifestation of their presence for a specific purpose. God is infinite and is everywhere. But the third Heaven is His throneroom and is where the humanity of Christ is now seated at the right hand of God the Father.
That is just more of your dispensensationalist nonsense....the KING REIGNS NOW....his kingdom is within us....God dwells within us NOW. You are totally missing the awesome resurrection life Jesus died to give you, one in which you should be living NOW instead of waiting for the great disappearing act that will NEVER happen.
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