Calling all Preterists and Futurists #3 (Matt.24:34) (zacharias, believe, scripture, Jesus)

'Assuredly I say to you, this generation shall not pass away until all these things take place.'

For me this verse is less controversial because it does have good alternative explanations.

How do we take the 2nd person plural ('you')?

What encompasses the 'all these things' - does it includes the Second coming or not?

How do we render 'take place' - Should it be an ingressive aorist? That is 'until all these things begin to take place.'

Have at it

But once again note the cumlative effect of Matt.10:23; 16:27-28; and now this verse.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

'Assuredly I say to you, this generation shall not pass away until all these things take place.'

For me this verse is less controversial because it does have good alternative explanations.

How do we take the 2nd person plural ('you')?

What encompasses the 'all these things' - does it includes the Second coming or not?

How do we render 'take place' - Should it be an ingressive aorist? That is 'until all these things begin to take place.'

Have at it

But once again note the cumlative effect of Matt.10:23; 16:27-28; and now this verse.

Concerning this verse, i believe the key is in the parable of the fig tree ... Throughout scripture the fig tree is a symbol for Israel ...(see Jer 24:5 ,Luk 13:6-9, Mat 21:19, Mar 11:12-14)



Matthew 24:32-35
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.



I believe Christ is referring to the fact that Israel would be destroyed, and that the generation that saw Israel become a nation again and when the Hebrew people began returning to the land after the diaspora, it would be a sign that of the coming of Christ.

I don not believe that it was Necessarily the generation to whom he was speaking that he was referring to when he said this, but instead that it would be the generation who would see Israel become a nation again at the end of the times of the gentiles ...

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

Concerning this verse, i believe the key is in the parable of the fig tree ... Throughout scripture the fig tree is a symbol for Israel ...(see Jer 24:5 ,Luk 13:6-9, Mat 21:19, Mar 11:12-14)



Matthew 24:32-35
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.



I believe Christ is referring to the fact that Israel would be destroyed, and that the generation that saw Israel become a nation again and when the Hebrew people began returning to the land after the diaspora, it would be a sign that of the coming of Christ.

I don not believe that it was Necessarily the generation to whom he was speaking that he was referring to when he said this, but instead that it would be the generation who would see Israel become a nation again at the end of the times of the gentiles ...

I understand your point, but you can have a futurist view without the Fig Tree = Israel. I posted this on another thread:

From my perspective it would seem unwarranted to think such a thing. A parable is taking some known and common thing and puting it beside something else that is unknown in order to shed light on that which is being taught.

Jesus uses a fig tree to reinforce and explain that when they see 'all these things' then they should known that His return is near - even at the doors.

The paralell is:

When the branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves you know that summer is near.

This is like:

When you see all these things (v.4-28 not Israel's Rebirth) you know that it [the return of the Lord v.29-31] is near - even at the doors.

The 'all these things' is likened to the fig tree blossoming not Israel's Rebirth.

Other than the fig tree being a type of Israel elsewhere in Scripture what justification (esp. in this context) is there for this parable being about Israel's Rebirth?

Note that in Luke's account he says 'and all the trees' not just the fig tree. He also adds that the kingdom of God would be near. So we know that it is the setting up of the Millenial Reign of Christ as well.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

I understand your point, but you can have a futurist view without the Fig Tree = Israel. I posted this on another thread:

From my perspective it would seem unwarranted to think such a thing. A parable is taking some known and common thing and puting it beside something else that is unknown in order to shed light on that which is being taught.

Jesus uses a fig tree to reinforce and explain that when they see 'all these things' then they should known that His return is near - even at the doors.

The paralell is:

When the branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves you know that summer is near.

This is like:

When you see all these things (v.4-28 not Israel's Rebirth) you know that it [the return of the Lord v.29-31] is near - even at the doors.

The 'all these things' is likened to the fig tree blossoming not Israel's Rebirth.

Other than the fig tree being a type of Israel elsewhere in Scripture what justification (esp. in this context) is there for this parable being about Israel's Rebirth?

Note that in Luke's account he says 'and all the trees' not just the fig tree. He also adds that the kingdom of God would be near. So we know that it is the setting up of the Millenial Reign of Christ as well.

I don't know if you actually looked at the verses i posted to show the semblance of the fig tree as being Israel ... I will quote one which is the only other time Christ spoke a parable using the symbol of the fig tree ...

Luk 13:6-9
Then he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. 7So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?' 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.'




Perhaps you do not see this as ample evidence of the idea that the other parable of the fig tree in the passage which is in question in this thread refers to Israel becoming a nation again, but i believe that it is ...


We must remember Christ spoke in parables in order to hide the meaning of what he was actually saying and not in order to make it more easily understood ...


Mat 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.


And unless Christ specifically explains his parables, we are left to decipher them ourselves and by the spirit of God. That is to say it remains a riddle i believe in order to throw those who are not in the spirit off the scent of the truth throughout the centuries as well as at the time he uttered them. And the only way we can decipher the parables that are not explicitly explained in the surrounding texts is by searching out their meaning in other places in the scripture and by being lead in our search by the spirit... Therefore i believe the other parable of the fig tree found in Luk 13:6-9 is entirely relevant to our understanding the meaning of the parable of the fig tree in passage under investigation in the op of this thread(Matt.24:34) ...

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

I don't know if you actually looked at the verses i posted to show the semblance of the fig tree as being Israel ... I will quote one which is the only other time Christ spoke a parable using the symbol of the fig tree ...

Luk 13:6-9
Then he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. 7So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?' 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.'




Perhaps you do not see this as ample evidence of the idea that the other parable of the fig tree in the passage which is in question in this thread refers to Israel becoming a nation again, but i believe that it is ...


We must remember Christ spoke in parables in order to hide the meaning of what he was actually saying and not in order to make it more easily understood ...


Mat 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.


And unless Christ specifically explains his parables, we are left to decipher them ourselves and by the spirit of God. That is to say it remains a riddle i believe in order to throw those who are not in the spirit off the scent of the truth throughout the centuries as well as at the time he uttered them. And the only way we can decipher the parables that are not explicitly explained in the surrounding texts is by searching out their meaning in other places in the scripture and by being lead in our search by the spirit... Therefore i believe the other parable of the fig tree found in Luk 13:6-9 is entirely relevant to our understanding the meaning of the parable of the fig tree in passage under investigation in the op of this thread(Matt.24:34) ...

I do think Christ explains the parable in verse 33.

The Fig Tree blossoming is likened to 'all these things' not Israel.

'So you also when you see all these things know that it [the coming of the Lord] is near - even at the doors.'

There is nothing in verses 4-28 [the all these things] refering to Israel's rebirth.

Anyway, whether it is or is not furturism or preterism does not hinge on this.

[sciotamicks]

Luke 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

That generation...this generation....hermeneutics...the generation Christ is speaking to. None other.

Also, from Luke's passage 21:31;

‘So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.’

So obviously there was a future kingdom yet to come. This is after Matt.10 and 16.

What kingdom was he talikng about if it was not the spiritual kingdom that was already present and which he had already said was near when he began his ministry?

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

Also, from Luke's passage 21:31;

‘So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.’

So obviously there was a future kingdom yet to come. This is after Matt.10 and 16.

What kingdom was he talikng about if it was not the spiritual kingdom that was already present and which he had already said was near when he began his ministry?

I believe from the preterist point of view the 40 year span of time from Christ until the destruction of Jerusalem is considered a transition period like 40 years in the wilderness was a transition period. So when the kingdom of God is near, here, within, amongst... it is not confirmed until certain things are finished. Namely that all enemies are put under foot, and it is the law and the leadership that is prohibiting the spread of the kingdom while the temple still stood. So the confirmation of the new covenant and the Kingdom of God came once the sacrificial system was put down in Jerusalem.. I believe that is why the temple's destruction is spoken of alongside the coming of the kingdom of God.

That is my understanding. So it makes sense to use several grammatical tenses when speaking of the kingdom of God as it is in transition but not yet confirmed.