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Nowhere does it say God knew someone would do something in-order to be saved, and then use that decision as the basis of predestination (fore-appoint). Scofield didn't even believe this. He believes election is wholly by grace apart from human merit. But that aside, you need to dump Scofield...LOL
The scriptures clearly say God foreknows them. Foreknow, not foreknew! It says, quite frankly:
Rom 8:29 because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.
The word "because" in ver. 29, points us back to the previous verse as to what is foreknown:
Rom 8:28 And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose;
It is those who are called according to purpose. And who are these that are called according to purpose? Let's find out...
Jesus did not say I called those who made a "fee will decision". He said:
Mat 9:13 but having gone, learn ye what is, Kindness I will, and not sacrifice, for I did not come to call righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.'
And those whom he called he declared righteous:
Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness:
You keep adding to scripture with your (this and that) between the parenthesis...LOL
When are you going to believe in the Gospel and quit making up your own? LOL
Nowhere does it say God knew someone would do something in-order to be saved, and then use that decision as the basis of predestination (fore-appoint). Scofield didn't even believe this. He believes election is wholly by grace apart from human merit. But that aside, you need to dump Scofield...LOL
Believing is not a work. It is however, a requirement for salvation. The Bible states it over and over.
Acts 16:31 ''Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.''
If you don't like Scofield for some reason, that is your problem.
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The scriptures clearly say God foreknows them. Foreknow, not foreknew! It says, quite frankly:
Rom 8:29 because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.
The word "because" in ver. 29, points us back to the previous verse as to what is foreknown:
You must be using either the KJV or the Youngs Translation.
The NASV correctly translates it as 'for whom He foreknew.' God knew from eternity past who would and wouldn't believe in Christ. That is why it is called fore-knowledge. Before knowledge. And again, it is a sub catagory of God's Omniscience which deals with believers.
The Greek word PROGINOSKO-->PROEGNO is in the vi Aor Act 3 Sg and is translated as He-before-knew--He foreknew.
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Rom 8:28 And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose;
It is those who are called according to purpose. And who are these that are called according to purpose? Let's find out...
Jesus did not say I called those who made a "fee will decision". He said:
Mat 9:13 but having gone, learn ye what is, Kindness I will, and not sacrifice, for I did not come to call righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.'
And those whom he called he declared righteous:
Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness:
You keep adding to scripture with your (this and that) between the parenthesis...LOL
Including notes of explanation is not adding to scripture.
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When are you going to believe in the Gospel and quit making up your own? LOL
Your accusation that I don't believe the Gospel is asinine.
It is God's purpose to save only those who answer His call through the Gospel.
Romans 8:28 ''...to those who are called (through the Gospel--2 Thess. 2:14.) according to His purpose. It is God's purpose to save those who respond to His call. God calls us through His Gospel. I just gave you the scripture verse that says it plainly.
People, read my post #20. You either understand it or you don't. If you're one of these people who deny the free will of man then you'll likely remain so. Those who haven't closed their eyes to the truth, may learn something.
And again people, believing is NOT A WORK. The Bible places faith and works on opposite sides of the coin. Eph. 2:8-9. How, when the Bible makes it crystal clear, can people remain in such ignorance?
Last edited by Michael Way; 12-16-2009 at 10:07 PM..
Believing is not a work. It is however, a requirement for salvation. The Bible states it over and over.
Acts 16:31 ''Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.''
Yes, you will be saved. But not because you believe, but because God justifies the sinner. And he does so, before they believe! When was Paul justified, before or after faith? Do you understand the difference between being declared righteous and being reckoned or imputed with righteousness?
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If you don't like Scofield for some reason, that is your problem.
Why on earth would you read a commentary attached to God's word?
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You must be using either the KJV or the Young's Translation.
And so should you...LOL The Gospel therein is revealed. The NASV is a lousy works based Gospel of God's word:
KJV and or YLT
Rom 3:22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,
NASV
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Do you see the difference? We are saved by the faith of Jesus! Not our faith. Our faith is a gift, given to us at regeneration through the Holy Spirit, by which our justification from God is imputed (or reckoned) to us.
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The NASV correctly translates it as 'for whom He foreknew.' God knew from eternity past who would and wouldn't believe in Christ. That is why it is called fore-knowledge. Before knowledge. And again, it is a sub catagory of God's Omniscience which deals with believers.
The Greek word PROGINOSKO-->PROEGNO is in the vi Aor Act 3 Sg and is translated as He-before-knew--He foreknew.
Here is the NASV lexicon reading for the Greek word:
G4267
προγινώσκω
proginōskō; from G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand: - foreknew (2), foreknown (1), knowing...beforehand (1), known (1).
They (NASV) translate to fit their preconceived doctrines and traditions of men, just like they did with Romans 3:22. The NASV is not a literal translation like Young's and has many errors, some of which you have shown. And thank-you for doing so.
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Including notes of explanation is not adding to scripture.
Sure it is. Those are your doctrines placed in the scripture. That is absolute arrogance to do so...LOL. The least you can do is let scripture speak for itself, and then give your commentary. At least then you will not be adding to God's word.
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Your accusation that I don't believe the Gospel is asinine.
Say what you will but it's true. And I wouldn't tell you if it wasn't so. Repent and believe in the Gospel!
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It is God's purpose to save only those who answer His call through the Gospel.
It is God's purpose to save those that He calls. Read it again. It is also God's will to save all men:
1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
Don't forget the second part if you try to deny it:
1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
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Romans 8:28 ''...to those who are called (through the Gospel--2 Thess. 2:14.) according to His purpose. It is God's purpose to save those who respond to His call. God calls us through His Gospel. I just gave you the scripture verse that says it plainly.
Of course, God's will is absolute. Whom He calls He justifies!
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People, read my post #20. You either understand it or you don't. If you're one of these people who deny the free will of man then you'll likely remain so. Those who haven't closed their eyes to the truth, may learn something.
You do not understand. That is your problem. Your eyes are shut to the Gospel. You proclaim a works based salvation that is not according to scripture.
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And again people, believing is NOT A WORK. The Bible places faith and works on opposite sides of the coin. Eph. 2:8-9. How, when the Bible makes it crystal clear, can people remain in such ignorance?
Your right, believing is a gift from God. It is not our work! And you are also right, how can you be so ignorant of this:
Eph 2:8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift,
Eph 2:9 not of works, that no one may boast;
Yes, you will be saved. But not because you believe, but because God justifies the sinner. And he does so, before they believe! When was Paul justified, before or after faith? Do you understand the difference between being declared righteous and being reckoned or imputed with righteousness?
John 8:24 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in you sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.
John 3:18 ''He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And despite many other passages such as these, people such as yourself come along and say that you don't have to believe. You make the word of God out to be a lie.
You are not justified until you believe in Christ for salvation. When a person believes in Christ, then and only then, God imputes His righteousness to that person and then pronounces him justified.
Romans 4:5 ''But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (The believers faith is counted for righteousness).
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Why on earth would you read a commentary attached to God's word?
And so should you...LOL The Gospel therein is revealed. The NASV is a lousy works based Gospel of God's word:
KJV and or YLT
Rom 3:22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,
NASV
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Do you see the difference? We are saved by the faith of Jesus! Not our faith. Our faith is a gift, given to us at regeneration through the Holy Spirit, by which our justification from God is imputed (or reckoned) to us.
You have got it backwards. Faith comes from the hearer of the Gospel. It does not come from God. And faith precedes regeneration. A person hears and understands the Gospel and as a result, he believes it.
We are saved through faith in Christ Jesus.
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.
Romans 4:5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness. (And this is from the KJV by the way.) Now, unless you want one scripture to contradict another scripture, then you have to acknowledge that it is the believers faith that is counted for righteousness. And you have to acknowledge that the phrase 'the faith of Christ' means something different.
Now, when talking about Rom. 3:22 where it says 'the faith of Christ,' it is talking about something else. It is not contradicting the fact that that salvation is through faith IN Christ, but rather it is stressing a different aspect of faith. The phrase 'the faith of Christ' is used in Rom 3:21,22; Gal. 2:16; Gal. 3:22; and Phil 3:9
The 'faith of Christ' refers to His faithful performance as our substitute redeemer. It refers to His faithful performance in doing what needed to be done on the Cross in paying the penalty for our sins.
So, the faith OF Christ is one thing, and the believers faith IN Christ is another thing. It is because of the faith OF Christ that man can be saved through faith IN Christ.
Now, regarding the issue of translations, every translation has its problems. The KJV has its mistakes and the NASV has its mistakes. And so do the other translations. Some people such as yourself, go to extremes in condemning the NASV because it is based on the Alexandria manuscript, and other people go to extremes in condemning the KJV because it is based on the Textus Receptus manuscript. The fact of the matter is that they are both generally good translations with each having its own problems. Now, in the case of Romans 8:22 where the phrase 'the faith of Christ' is used, the KJV IS correct, and the NASV was translated wrongly.
In the case of Romans 8:29, the NASV correctly translates the phrase 'For whom He foreknew'. Whereas the KJV renders the phrase as 'For whom he did foreknow.'' Which means the exact same thing as 'He foreknew.'
To call the NASV A filthy works based gospel of God's work is a radical and unwarranted comment that is based on prejudice.
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Here is the NASV lexicon reading for the Greek word:
G4267
προγινώσκω
proginōskō; from G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand: - foreknew (2), foreknown (1), knowing...beforehand (1), known (1).
They (NASV) translate to fit their preconceived doctrines and traditions of men, just like they did with Romans 3:22. The NASV is not a literal translation like Young's and has many errors, some of which you have shown. And thank-you for doing so.
The above lexicon readng is correct. You have already been shown the Greek transliteration for the word in question.
I gave the Greek transliteration of the word 'foreknew' in Romans 8:29. I showed that the word is PROEGNO and that it is in the vi. Aor Act 3 sg. And that it IS properly translated in the NASV.
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Sure it is. Those are your doctrines placed in the scripture. That is absolute arrogance to do so...LOL. The least you can do is let scripture speak for itself, and then give your commentary. At least then you will not be adding to God's word.
Say what you will but it's true. And I wouldn't tell you if it wasn't so. Repent and believe in the Gospel!
No, they are explanatory notes that clarify what the verse is talking about.
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It is God's purpose to save those that He calls. Read it again. It is also God's will to save all men:
1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
Don't forget the second part if you try to deny it:
1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
Of course, God's will is absolute. Whom He calls He justifies!
You sound like a universalist. That is a heresy straight from the mind of Satan.
Rom. 8:29 For whom He foreknew (this is God's knowledge as it relates to believers only), He also predestined (God predestined those who He foreknew would believe in Christ. The believer is predestined because God knew that he would believe in Christ)...and whom He predestined, these He also called (through the Gospel--2 Thess. 2:14) and whom He called, these He also justified (those who answer yes to the call of the gospel are justified through faith in Christ--Gal 2:16), and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
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You do not understand. That is your problem. Your eyes are shut to the Gospel. You proclaim a works based salvation that is not according to scripture.
Believing is not works. Believing is faith. Believing is not a works based salvation.
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Your right, believing is a gift from God. It is not our work! And you are also right, how can you be so ignorant of this:
Eph 2:8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift,
Eph 2:9 not of works, that no one may boast;
Do not put words in my mouth. Believing is not a gift from God. Faith is the responsibility of the person hearing the gospel.
God does not will to save anyone APART from the Gospel. If a person does not believe in Christ, he will die in his sins. He will remain under condemnation.
You are not justified until you believe in Christ.
If Lazarus had no choice but to "rise" and "come forth", does not that set a precedence for us, being that we are dead in our sins before God bestowed on us the grace to rise to new life ourselves? Do we discount the "measure of faith" he gives to men (Rom 12:3), or will we maintain control until He proves us wrong?
Do any of you honestly beleave God wants anyone to sin? I beleave God made it clear he hates sin. Now I will not discount the fact that God is in control of all things, if He choses, but He created man to make freewill choices so He take His hand off of certain things so mankind can learn from their mistakes, and beleave me we make some tragic mistakes and we break Gods heart.
Let's go over this one step at a time. So that we do not confuse words, I'll use your NASV (1977 ed.)...OK? Actually the NASV keeps revising their text. The newer editions use the word counted in stead of reckoned, so keep that in mind if you're using a newer version...LOL. (For your info: The YLT uses the literal rendering declared righteous for the NASV term Justified.)
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Originally Posted by Mike555
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You are not justified until you believe in Christ for salvation. When a person believes in Christ, then and only then, God imputes His righteousness to that person and then pronounces him justified.
We are Justified by Christ alone at the cross and in His resurrection. It is known as the Gospel. It is not by our faith that we are justified. Let's look at the two Greek words that distinguish between the act of being Justified and the act of being Reckoned, with that Justification:
The Greek word for Justified in the NASV is:
G1344
δικαιόω
dikaioō; from G1342; to show to be righteous, declare righteous
and also:
G1347
δικαίωσις
dikaiōsis; from G1344; the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal
The Greek word to Reckon in the NASV is:
G3049
λογίζομαι
logizomai; from G3056 (in the sense of an account or reckoning); to reckon, to consider
We are Justified by God on the merits of Christ's work alone:
Rom 4:25 He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. (NASV G1347).
We are, or will be, Reckoned righteous, through faith, in time:
Rom 4:23 Now not for his sake only was it written, that it was reckoned (NASV G3049) to him,
Rom 4:24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be reckoned, (NASV G3049) as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,
Now look....this is what is important:
Rom 8:30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified (NASV 1344), these He also glorified.
Those Justified are done so on the merits of Christ's work alone. It is not by our faith that we are Justified. And those that are Justified on the merits of Christ's work will be glorified.
Before moving on, can we at least agree on this part? Do you see the difference between being Justified and being Reckoned with that Justification?
Ohhhhhhhhhhh!!!!! That's it, isn't it, no wonder why the disconnect bewteen universalist and orthodox Christianity. It just hit me! I have noticed this unwillingness among universalists to accept that the individual is responsible for his or her salvation......
This MUST be an important, core root of universalism.....If God is totally responsible and none fall on us then there is no possible way God could send people to an eternal hell, that God would be a "unfair", "irrational" "monster" and not the loving God we are led to believe in the bible because that wouldn't make sense would it?
So what you say universalist, your belief in universalism forces you to get creative with words in explaining how the individual bares absolutely no responsibility for their salvation????!!!!
2 QUESTIONS.
1) If no responsibility falls on the individual, then why the need for correction?
2) If God is the one that saves and the individual has no choice, then why do we appeal to the individual too and not just God? why even share our faith?
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 12-17-2009 at 09:33 AM..
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The Gospel therein is revealed. The NASV is a lousy works based Gospel of God's word:
