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I think it is funny trying to pin a label like preterist on the early church... LOL
That is like saying that John was a preterist when clearly he was a present-ist !
John clearly thought with all his heart that Jesus would come soon... He records Jesus himself stating in the vision that he would come quickly.. If that isn't a clear enough statement to the fact that he came quickly.. then I don't know what is...
What reason do futurists have for denying the time statements in Revelation again?
You can argue that Polycarp, Irenaeus, Eusebius, et al. were preterist because they all believed that the New Covenant was in full effect. That would have only been the case if Jesus already came back.
Figuratively, in our lives, we experience the second coming and resurrection the moment we realize the way, the truth and the light of the gospel...
Literally, the purpose in coming back was to establish the New Covenant and take the inheritance from Israel, and to give it to all men (salvation being the inheritance).
Amen.
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee.
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee.
End game for Ethnic Israel.
Rom 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Spiritually there is no doubt that Israel was the mystery Babylon before the destruction of the temple ... and then the Christian(roman catholic) church inherited the tiles in the 4th century when it became the state religion of the pagan Rome and was infiltrated by the Mystery traditions of Babylon which the Hebrews had been infiltrated by after their captivity under Babylon.
Though they were destroyed and dispersed, they are even now being regathered to the land of the covenant and will be brought back to life again when the Lord returns in Glory.
Then all scoffers will answer to him for their disbelief. After which all the nations of the earth will finally learn righteousness and turn unto God and worship him and sing his name.
Rom 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
What is the definition of Death, scripturally?
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Spiritually there is no doubt that Israel was the mystery Babylon before the destruction of the temple ... and then the Christian(roman catholic) church inherited the tiles in the 4th century when it became the state religion of the pagan Rome and was infiltrated by the Mystery traditions of Babylon which the Hebrews had been infiltrated by after their captivity under Babylon.
Again, you miss it entirely. Revelation is bracketed with whom the audience it is relevant to?
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Though they were destroyed and dispersed, they are even now being regathered to the land of the covenant and will be brought back to life again when the Lord returns in Glory.
They are NO LONGER A COVENANT PEOPLE.
Only one covenant exists now, and forever in the saints and God...Rev 22:5
Ironmaw, take off the glasses and open your mind and heart.
Again, you miss it entirely. Revelation is bracketed with whom the audience it is relevant to?
Again you refuse the fact that the scriptures, especially prophecies old and new testament alike, are not always referring to the audience that receives them. The old testament was full of prophecies that were never fulfilled until hundreds of years after they were written. The new testament, especially revelations, is no different.
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They are NO LONGER A COVENANT PEOPLE.
Only one covenant exists now, and forever in the saints and God...Rev 22:5
Ironmaw, take off the glasses and open your mind and heart.
My heart and mind are open, and i love Israel and bless them even though they have been blinded. I know God will make Israel head of the nations and i dare not curse them as you do ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-04-2010 at 10:17 PM..
sciotamicks wrote:
They are NO LONGER A COVENANT PEOPLE.
Only one covenant exists now, and forever in the saints and God...Rev 22:5
Ironmaw, take off the glasses and open your mind and heart.
Once the complement of the nations enters then and only then will Christ return out of Zion and save Israel. "And this is my covenant with them" (Romans 11:25,26). So, in the future, when Christ finally returns, His people will no longer be lo-ammi (Hos.1:9; 2:23) but they will be His covenant people.
Again you refuse the fact that the scriptures, especially prophecies old and new testament alike, are not always referring to the audience that receives them.
Here is where you err profoundly.
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The old testament was full of prophecies that were never fulfilled until hundreds of years after they were written. The new testament, especially revelations, is no different.
They were all fulfilled at the end of age, that is the Mosaic Age.
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My heart and mind are open, and i love Israel and bless them even though they have been blinded. I know God will make Israel head of the nations and i dare not curse them as you do ...
Cursing? Who is doing that? The fact that they are no longer a covenant people has nothing to do with cursing. This is God's job.
They were all fulfilled at the end of age, that is the Mosaic Age.
Cursing? Who is doing that? The fact that they are no longer a covenant people has nothing to do with cursing. This is God's job.
I wrote ...
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Again you refuse the fact that the scriptures, especially prophecies old and new testament alike, are not always referring to the audience that receives them.
To which you replied ...
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Here is where you err profoundly.
Are you saying all the old testament prophecies were fulfilled during the life times of the audience to which those prophecies were delivered?
You err because you lay false witness to the scripture when it compounds that these things will take place "soon and at hand".
Listen carefully, the prophecies of the OT and NT were written to the very audience in which it would be fulfilled.......THE JEWS, ending with their age of dispensation....70 AD.
They were the covenant people, and they were the subject of all the prophecies in which they were written. The prophecies of both texts included Gentile kingdoms and audiences, but the subject of the wrath or blessings were only in regards to the Jews.
From Adam to John of Zebedee, the focus was the covenantal people. The Jews.
Whether it be about Pharoah, Ninevah, Nebu, Assyria, Babylon, whichever, the focus was with the wraths or blessings for the covenantal people...the Jews.
The end of the age was the Mosaic age.
Now let me ask you a question....
What does 2 Peter 3:10 mean to you?
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
You err because you lay false witness to the scripture when it compounds that these things will take place "soon and at hand".
Listen carefully, the prophecies of the OT and NT were written to the very audience in which it would be fulfilled.......THE JEWS, ending with their age of dispensation....70 AD.
They were the covenant people, and they were the subject of all the prophecies in which they were written. The prophecies of both texts included Gentile kingdoms and audiences, but the subject of the wrath or blessings were only in regards to the Jews.
From Adam to John of Zebedee, the focus was the covenantal people. The Jews.
Whether it be about Pharoah, Ninevah, Nebu, Assyria, Babylon, whichever, the focus was with the wraths or blessings for the covenantal people...the Jews.
The end of the age was the Mosaic age.
Now let me ask you a question....
What does 2 Peter 3:10 mean to you?
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
You seem not to realize that in the old testament, prophecies were made wherein the same language was used, that is to say "at hand", "soon" etc., yet the prophecies were not fuflilled untill centuries after the fact.
Such as the Prophecy of Isaiah against the empire of Babylon in chapter 13. Isaiah lived in the 8th century BCE, yet the prophecy was not fulfilled untill the 5th century BCE ...
And lo and behold what do we see that Isaiah wrote about the time of its fulfillment? He wrote that it was "at hand" ...
Isa 13:5-6
They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:22
Hyenas will howl in her strongholds,jackals in her luxurious palaces.
Her time is at hand,
and her days will not be prolonged.
Or how about Zephaniah chapter one which prophesies the day of the lords "sacrfice" is "at hand" ... This was for the most part fulfilled at the time of the death of Christ six centuries later ...
Zep 1:6-8
And them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor enquired for him. Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD's sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
The fact is the language used in the new testament concerning the judgments of God on Israel and on the nations is the same language used throughout the old testament.
When Jesus said "at hand", "near", "soon", etc .... he is repeating the words of the OT prophets. He is saying the same thing those prophets did hundreds of years earlier. And the same time language though understood by mankind as being distant, to God it is "at hand" and "near" and "soon".
Just like those prophecies did not all happen soon as man understands soon, so the the prophecies of Christ did not all happen soon as man understands soon. As Peter told us, that soon to god is not the same as soon to man. That is to say God is not slack concerning his promises as man counts slackness ... But he long suffers the vessels fitted unto wrath that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels fitted unto mercy ...
Where you misunderstand me is in thinking that i am a full/hyper futurist or a full dispensationalist, even though i have told you time and again my hermeneutic is a synthesis of all the various prophetic hermeneutics, preterist, historicist, idealist, and futurist/dispensationalist.
History repeats itself, in cycles or in ages/aeons ... Until finally all things are accomplished and the lord achieves his will in earth even as it is in heaven. The judgments on Israel and the others nations in the past were all foreshadowings of the great and final judgment that shall come upon the earth to try all them who dwell therein.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-05-2010 at 07:47 PM..
Such as the Prophecy of Isaiah against the empire of Babylon in chapter 13. Isaiah lived in the 8th century BCE, yet the prophecy was not fulfilled untill the 5th century BCE ...
And lo and behold what do we see that Isaiah wrote about the time of its fulfillment? He wrote that it was "at hand" ...
Isa 13:5-6
They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:22
Hyenas will howl in her strongholds,jackals in her luxurious palaces.
Her time is at hand,
and her days will not be prolonged.
Fulfilled in 627 BC
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Or how about Zephaniah chapter one which prophesies the day of the lords "sacrfice" is "at hand" ... This was for the most part fulfilled at the time of the death of Christ six centuries later ...
Zep 1:6-8
And them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor enquired for him. Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD's sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
The destruction of Judah and Jerusalem, an utter destruction, by the Chaldeans.
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History repeats itself, in cycles or in ages/aeons ... Until finally all things are accomplished and the lord achieves his will in earth even as it is in heaven. The judgments on Israel and the others nations in the past were all foreshadowings of the great and final judgment that shall come upon the earth to try all them who dwell therein.
You are wrong. There is no such thing as dual fulfillements.
You are confusing typology with prophecy.
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