Continuous Faith is Not required of Man in order to be Saved (crucified, preach)
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Thanks Raelyn. I'm praying for both you and your sister.
You know, It seems that it would be easier to nail jello to a wall then it is to get many people to understand that salvation is by the grace of God through faith alone in Christ alone.
Lol, very good analogy...I am feeling and thinking the same thing along with many of the other believers as well.
I grew up in OSAS country. I've seen the evils of that form of doctrine. You're preaching to the choir. I once believed it myself. But that was a long time ago. And, it's common to hear about OSAS ministers leaveing the ministry to have an adulterous affair, or start hitting the bottle and crack under the pressure. I wonder how many of them gave into temptation while using OSAS as a crutch?
I am sure that they are not having an affair with the thought of escaping hell... but I am also sure that they certainly understand the concept of consequences for their sin... Hmmmm, I wonder if King David is in Heaven? After all he did murder and have an affair, oh and then lied about it... God called him a man after God's own heart.
Don't kid yourself. Everyone sins. And sins often.
Read my post again again. I never said saved people don't sin, I said they don't want to sin. There is a big difference in slipping, and deliberatly living in sin. When Paul says that saved people 'are dead to sin' he means that do not want to sin.
Those people who think they can say the prayer, and then go back to life of sin are the ones kidding themselves, because they were never saved.
The Joel Osteens etc modern day pastors are glad to say "repeate these words after me, and then you are saved by the Grace of God" are fooling millions of people into thinking they are saved, when they are not. It is not for the to declare someone saved. No one except Christ can do that. Sometimes people are saved after the initial prayer, but often they are not. Some people have to beg for salvation many times until it is granted. No one should assume that all you need is one prayer, and then you are saved forever. The Bible says to believers to examine themselves to figure out if they are really saved, or only think so. If you find yourself sinning habitually, then you are failing the test, and you were never saved in the first place.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 01-25-2010 at 05:24 AM..
Read my post again again. I never said saved people don't sin, I said they don't want to sin. There is a big difference in slipping, and deliberatly living in sin. When Paul says that saved people 'are dead to sin' he means that do not want to sin.
Those people who think they can say the prayer, and then go back to life of sin are the ones kidding themselves, because they were never saved.
The Joel Osteens etc modern day pastors are glad to say "repeate these words after me, and then you are saved by the Grace of God" are fooling millions of people into thinking they are saved, when they are not. It is not for the to declare someone saved. No one except Christ can do that. Sometimes people are saved after the initial prayer, but often they are not. Some people have to beg for salvation many times until it is granted. No one should assume that all you need is one prayer, and then you are saved forever. The Bible says to believers to examine themselves to figure out if they are really saved, or only think so. If you find yourself sinning habitually, then you are failing the test, and you were never saved in the first place.
I know what you wrote. And I know what I wrote. I explained what being dead to sin means. It does not mean that Christians don't want to sin. Although it is to hoped that they don't want to. But that is not the meaning of being dead to sin. Being dead to sin means that the believer is not a slave to sin. It has to do with positional sanctification and redemption. It has to do with no longer being positional in Adam, but being positionally in Christ. As I said, the Corinthians were habitually sinning.
What I'm trying to say is that as a result of being positionally in Christ and having been freed from the power of sin, the Christian should not give himself over to sin. But a Christian certainly can slip back into a manner of life characterized by continual sin. The Christian still has a sin nature. And if he is not growing spiritually then he is going backwards in his spiritual life. But he is still saved. One need only look at Solomon to understand that. Now Solomon lived during the age of Israel and therefore wasn't a Christian, but he was saved, though faith in the Messiah. The term 'Christian' applys only to Church-age believers. He lived a great deal of his life living in sin, that is, he was living no differently then an unbeliever would, but he did not lose his salvation, and eventually he turned back to God.
No one has to beg for salvation ever. And salvation occurs immediately at the initial moment of placing your faith in Christ. If you don't understand that then you don't understand the principle of grace. And perhaps you never will.
There's no further point in discussing this. You have the links I provided with all the information contained in them. If you want to learn something about God and His policy of grace then I suggest you study them. If you're not interested then don't bother.
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-25-2010 at 09:42 AM..
If you don't understand that then you don't understand the principle of grace. And perhaps you never will.
Quote:
If you want to learn something about God and His policy of grace then I suggest you study them. If you're not interested then don't bother.
There is no reason to get upset. You are not under attack.
You worded your reply to suggest that I said that saved people simply cannot not sin, when I has specifically said otherwise. I said they don't want to sin, which is same as saying they are not compelled to sin, which is same as they hate sin, which is the same as they are not slave to sin, which is how you put it. Same difference.
And now you say that if I wanted to know something about God, I should study the basics, and that implies that you think I can't possibly can't know anything about God. Come one....
I assume you are having a horrible day, so I think you are better left alone.
PS Yes, there are many people who were not saved by repeating the words after a pastor. If they want it, they have to beg for it until they find the right sincere mindset to accept the gift. Many churches ask people to come forward and kneel and pray, and people do it because they are filled with emotion. But they realize that when the emotion wears off in a few days that nothing had changed. Why? Because they had not received it. But of course if they run into a OSAS person, they tend to ask "did you pray", you say "yes", then the OSAS person declares "well, then you are saved". It is not for them to made such declaration. What they should tell them is "test yourself".
There is no reason to get upset. You are not under attack.
You worded your reply to suggest that I said that saved people simply cannot not sin, when I has specifically said otherwise. I said they don't want to sin, which is same as saying they are not compelled to sin, which is the same as they are not slave to sin, which is how you put it. Same difference.
And now you say that if I wanted to know something about God, I should study the basics, and that implies that you think I can't possibly know anything about God. Come one....
I assume you are having a horrible day, so I think you are better left alone.
PS Yes, there are many people who were not saved by repeating the words after a pastor. If they want it, they have to beg for it until they find the right sincere mindset to accept the gift. Many churches ask people to come forward and kneel and pray, and people do it because they are filled with emotion. But they realize that when the emotion wears off in a few days that nothing had changed. Why? Because they had not received it. But of course if they run into a OSAS person, they tend to ask "did you pray", you say "yes", then the OSAS person declares "well, then you are saved". It is not for them to made such declaration. What they should tell them is "test yourself".
That is quite an asumption to make.I'm in no way upset. Beyond a certain point, there is no use in discussing an issue. Once a person has shown they have no interest in what the Bible actually says but prefer to believe their misconceptions then let them remain so. Again, you have the information already provided. Study it if you've a mind to, or don't. Your choice. And you are still not getting it. A believer can certainly fall into a lifestyle of sin. All you have to do is study the life of Solomon and you will have an example of that fact. And in no way can you say that Solomon was never saved to begin with just because he turned away from God for a very long time. You are under a great misconception. And again, no one has to beg for salvation. That is not grace. And that shows that you don't understand God.
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-25-2010 at 10:09 AM..
I'm in no way upset. Beyond a certain point, there is no use in discussing an issue. Once a person has shown they have no interest in what the Bible actually says but prefer to believe their misconceptions then let them remain so. Again, you have the information already provided. Study it if you've a mind to, or don't. Your choice. And you are still not getting it. A believer can certainly fall into a lifestyle of sin. All you have to do is study the life of Solomon and you will have an example of that fact. And in no way can you say that Solomon was never saved to begin with just because he turned away from God for a very long time. You are under a great misconception.
You sound upset, even with this post. Why the angst?
Maybe you need to take your own advice and also study the information what other people give you. Did you watch the Paul Washer videos?
Solomon lived before the 2nd covenant, so maybe he is not the best example in the matters is salvation. Again, if there is no change all in your life whatsoever when you pray for Christ to enter, then there is a good chance that nothing happened when you prayed, because there is no such thing as a completely fruitless Christian. Such people might say that they know Christ, but Christ may not know them.
And for the third time, I never said it is impossible for a saved person to sin. I don't know why you insist that I have said such a thing. However, you might want to look into what 'both again' really means. If you think it means you can pray a prayer, and then crack you knuckles and go back to life of sin, then you are the one who is under a great misconception, not me.
You sound upset, even with this post. Why the angst?
Maybe you need to take your own advice and also study the information what other people give you. Did you watch the Paul Washer videos?
Solomon lived before the 2nd covenant, so maybe he is not the best example in the matters is salvation. Again, if there is no change all in your life whatsoever when you pray for Christ to enter, then there is a good chance that nothing happened when you prayed, because there is no such thing as a completely fruitless Christian. Such people might say that they know Christ, but Christ may not know them.
And for the third time, I never said it is impossible for a saved person to sin. I don't know why you insist that I have said such a thing. However, you might want to look into what 'both again' really means. If you think it means you can pray a prayer, and then crack you knuckles and go back to life of sin, then you are the one who is under a great misconception, not me.
As I said, I'm not upset in anyway. That is either your imagination or just a petty attempt on your part to provoke an argument. I never said that you said it was impossible to for a person to sin. What you won't accept is that a believer can certainly choose to sin.
Salvation is the same in all dispensations, and is eternally secure in all dispensations. Solomon is a perfect example to use. And salvation is not a matter of prayer. It is a matter of placing your trust in Christ for salvation. And one moment of faith is what does it.
Now, once again, I am not upset. I am simply not going to waste my time on someone who obviously rejects the principle of grace. I have better things to do. End of discussion.
I am simply not going to waste my time on someone who obviously rejects the principle of grace. I have better things to do. End of discussion.
I didn't I know I rejected it, but if you say so. Well, good bye then.
Parting words:
Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
2 Peter 2:20-21 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 01-25-2010 at 11:14 AM..
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God called him a man after God's own heart. 
. 