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Look Mike....Jesus words take priority over what Paul said....would you agree?.
Correct. How about these words of Christ............find works\the law if you can: Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
John 6:35
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty
John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:47
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
John 7:38
Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."
(Notice ChristyGr...Jesus referenced "the scritures", the same Paul used and found in the OT. "scriptures are not broken" )
John 6:28
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
I thought we got that last part cleared up. The potential for justification occurs at the Cross. The reality of justification doesn't occur until you realize that you can do nothing for your salvation and instead trust Christ for your salvation. That trust is what faith is. At that point God imputes His righteousness to the believer and seeing His righteousness, He then declares that person to be justified in His sight.
No one is justified until they believe in Christ. If everyone were justified before believing in Christ then no one would be born already under condemnation.
And Arminianism doesn't teach eternal security. I do. As does the Bible.
I thought we were too...LOL That was the agreement...but now you've changed it.
I tell you what, google "objective justification" and "subjective justification". You may need to add a modifier such as doctrine to limit the search results. Perhaps my ability to explain it is not very good...and I apologizes for that. Here is a site (one of many) that comes up that has a good article explaining it:
I agree with you that Arminianism does not teach perseverance of the Saints (which I also believe). But Arminianism does teach synergism, or man's faith as being the deciding factor (rather than Christ's work alone and His Father's declaration alone) that accomplishes our Justification. Here is an article that discusses the differences between synergism and monergism:
Synergism is not (IMO, I'll be nice ) scriptural. Christ's work alone accomplished our justification before God and from this act flows (in time) regeneration and faith (as a gift from God) and with it comes Christ's righteousness imputed to us, to those who believe (at the moment of faith).
I read where you said that faith is a non-meritorious act, but that is still something we can boast in (regardless of what we call it) if it is the deciding factor in our being declared righteous. That's why it is not faith that declares us justified (objectively so) before God, but rather Christ's work alone that does. Therefore we have nothing we can boast in. Nothing. It is Christ alone.
The reason a non-believer is under condemnation and God's wrath (and will remain so in that condition until faith) is because justification has not been subjectively reckoned to their account. But justification's objective truth stands on the grounds of Christ alone and His Father's declaration of it being so.
This is (IMO) one of the most important doctrines of the Church. It causes us to look away from ourselves and to Christ alone in faith, who loved us and died for us. We can believe the Gospel and it's truth's proclaimed because it is true.
I am a Calvinist. We call it Free Grace Soteriology.
You can look it up and find the scriptures that support it.
I would....but have enough to do just verifying the stances that I quote.
I may later look into "Free Grace Soteriology". The youth of our church have asked me what other faiths believe. This may be an opportunity for a future lesson with them.
Mike,
Hebrews 10:35-39 35 "So do not throw away your confidence;" (usless words if not possible, right?) 36 "You need to persevere" (again, usless words if not possible)
38 But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him." 39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved."
"But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed"
Who are "those who live by faith if he shrinks" ...unbelievers? No, rather it the believer who shrinks from "by faith" alone that God will not be pleased with. The result of God's displeasure...you will be destroyed.
I would say that being destroyed by God more than qualifies as "disowned".
_________________________________________
With that being said,
"But my righteous one will live by faith." is still the core message.
Righteous is by faith. Not by works.
Sola Fide ! ----- ("by faith alone")
Sola scriptura ! ----- ("by Scripture alone")
Sola gratia ! ----- ("by grace alone")
Solus Christus or Solo Christo ! ----- ("Christ alone" or "through Christ alone")
Soli Deo gloria ! ----- ("glory to God alone")
The vast majority of the New Testament doesn't even refer to eternal salvation. That is an issue for unbelievers. The Epistles are addressed to believers and much of what is written refers to temporal salvation, not eternal salvation. In other words, the Epistles are talking about the believers spiritual life after eternal salvation has been given as a result of faith in Christ. The believer can only come under divine discipline in time. He can be taken out of this life under maximum divine discipline but he cannot lose his salvation.
Look at 2 Timothy 2:11-13.
'It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him:
If we endure, we shall also reign with Him;(eternal rewards)
If we deny Him, He also will deny us; (eternal rewards. Not eternal life) If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself. (Eternal security. No loss of eternal salvation.)
The context of Hebrews 10 is referring to a group of Jewish believers who were losing their confidence in the new Church age doctrines and were reverting back to animal sacrifices. Hebrews 10:26 is referring specifcally to that. These Jewish believers were going back to sacrificing animals after Christ had already sacrificed Himself. I'm working from memory here and so can't really go into any more detail. But you can research it if you want.
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-23-2010 at 08:26 PM..
I thought we were too...LOL That was the agreement...but now you've changed it.
I tell you what, google "objective justification" and "subjective justification". You may need to add a modifier such as doctrine to limit the search results. Perhaps my ability to explain it is not very good...and I apologizes for that. Here is a site (one of many) that comes up that has a good article explaining it:
I agree with you that Arminianism does not teach perseverance of the Saints (which I also believe). But Arminianism does teach synergism, or man's faith as being the deciding factor (rather than Christ's work alone and His Father's declaration alone) that accomplishes our Justification. Here is an article that discusses the differences between synergism and monergism:
Synergism is not (IMO, I'll be nice ) scriptural. Christ's work alone accomplished our justification before God and from this act flows (in time) regeneration and faith (as a gift from God) and with it comes Christ's righteousness imputed to us, to those who believe (at the moment of faith).
I read where you said that faith is a non-meritorious act, but that is still something we can boast in (regardless of what we call it) if it is the deciding factor in our being declared righteous. That's why it is not faith that declares us justified (objectively so) before God, but rather Christ's work alone that does. Therefore we have nothing we can boast in. Nothing. It is Christ alone.
The reason a non-believer is under condemnation and God's wrath (and will remain so in that condition until faith) is because justification has not been subjectively reckoned to their account. But justification's objective truth stands on the grounds of Christ alone and His Father's declaration of it being so.
This is (IMO) one of the most important doctrines of the Church. It causes us to look away from ourselves and to Christ alone in faith, who loved us and died for us. We can believe the Gospel and it's truth's proclaimed because it is true.
The vast majority of the New Testament doesn't even refer to eternal salvation. That is an issue for unbelievers. The Epistles are addressed to believers and much of what is written refers to temporal salvation, not eternal salvation. In other words, the Epistles are talking about the believers spiritual life after eternal salvation has been given as a result of faith in Christ. The believer can only come under divine discipline in time. He can be taken out of this life under maximum divine discipline but he cannot lose his salvation.
Look at 2 Timothy 2:11-13.
'It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him:
If we endure, we shall also reign with Him;(eternal rewards)
If we deny Him, He also will deny us; (eternal rewards. Not eternal life) If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself. (Eternal security. No loss of eternal salvation.)
It would depend on the audience to whom it's written...would it not?
"afflict the comfortable" Hebrews 10
"comfort the afflicted" 2 Timothy
If we are not concerned about our home in Heaven our faith in the Lord,we are fools.Are you on the narrow road to salvation or the wide road which is the fools road to perdition.
Three things to do
1)repent
2) trust Lord in salvation
3)obey Him
Last edited by noland123; 01-23-2010 at 08:54 PM..
I thought we were too...LOL That was the agreement...but now you've changed it.
I tell you what, google "objective justification" and "subjective justification". You may need to add a modifier such as doctrine to limit the search results. Perhaps my ability to explain it is not very good...and I apologizes for that. Here is a site (one of many) that comes up that has a good article explaining it:
I agree with you that Arminianism does not teach perseverance of the Saints (which I also believe). But Arminianism does teach synergism, or man's faith as being the deciding factor (rather than Christ's work alone and His Father's declaration alone) that accomplishes our Justification. Here is an article that discusses the differences between synergism and monergism:
Synergism is not (IMO, I'll be nice ) scriptural. Christ's work alone accomplished our justification before God and from this act flows (in time) regeneration and faith (as a gift from God) and with it comes Christ's righteousness imputed to us, to those who believe (at the moment of faith).
I read where you said that faith is a non-meritorious act, but that is still something we can boast in (regardless of what we call it) if it is the deciding factor in our being declared righteous. That's why it is not faith that declares us justified (objectively so) before God, but rather Christ's work alone that does. Therefore we have nothing we can boast in. Nothing. It is Christ alone.
Eph. 2:8-9 says otherwise.
Quote:
The reason a non-believer is under condemnation and God's wrath (and will remain so in that condition until faith) is because justification has not been subjectively reckoned to their account. But justification's objective truth stands on the grounds of Christ alone and His Father's declaration of it being so.
This is (IMO) one of the most important doctrines of the Church. It causes us to look away from ourselves and to Christ alone in faith, who loved us and died for us. We can believe the Gospel and it's truth's proclaimed because it is true.
I've changed nothing. And I Know precisely what I am talking about. If you don't understand what I'm saying, then at this point, I don't really care. End of discussion.
Exactly, that's why faith (our own faith) is not the deciding factor. Because we could boast if it was, or if was not considered a gift to us.
Quote:
I've changed nothing. And I Know precisely what I am talking about.
You are changing, you just don't recognize it, or perhaps pride may not allow you to admit it...LOL Go back and read some of your posts three months ago. I see a remarkable improvement in your understanding of the Gospel. I praise God each day for it.
Quote:
If you don't understand what I'm saying, then at this point, I don't really care. End of discussion.
I understand your doctrinal position...LOL That's why I keep pounding on it like a drum. If you want the discussion to end, than so be it. But I'll continue to pray for you each day. You post a lot here and consequently are able to reach many people in doing so. I want them to hear the Gospel in it's full truth, and what Jesus accomplished for us.
Understand that the issue, the subject being discussed here is only salvation, and NOT the way that a believer should live AFTER salvation.
"Salvation" is a process which God initiates (through rebirth) and which God completes.
It's all about who we are recreated to be.
"Who were born not by the will of man, nor by the will of the flesh, but of God"
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) scriptural. Christ's work alone accomplished our justification before God and from this act flows (in time) regeneration and faith (as a gift from God) and with it comes Christ's righteousness imputed to us, to those who believe (at the moment of faith).
