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NOTE: I am NOT a Christian but seeking to find out how Christians who believe in prophecy interpret a part of this prophecy.
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Once upon a time when I was a fundamentalist Christian, I believed that Ezekiel 37-39 was an interrupted prophecy. Chapter 37 (as I saw it) predicted the reutrn of Jews to life in their homeland of Israel today. Believing this, chapter 38 and 39 was the supposed to be about the almost immediate threat the Jews would come up against as god would bring an enemy against them from the north. At the time, I believed the enemy was the Soviet Union along with some allies, but after that empire dissolved, the attention turned to Russia.
Today, I am not sure what prophecy believing Christians make of the chapter as there is no immediate threat to Israel from Russia. Also, if, as some believe, the prophecy was for a time not far removed from the writer's time (he was seeing a period in his immediate future when the Babylonian exiled Jews would return to their homeland), then no such events happened other than the fact the nation did come back to life.
If the prophecy is still future as futurist have no choice but to believe, my question is, why does the author mention that the invaders would be riding horses and carrying archaic weapons in a day in a nuclear and high tech age? Doesn't this prove he did not "see" our modern times in his vision? While I realize if he was seeing such a vision as something to occur in the far future he would not recognize a military jet, tank or ship, what exactly would he have been seeing to equate modern weapons with a horses, spears, swords, shields?
I never considered these things back in the day so I am curious how the Christians of today are interpreting this?
NOTE: I am NOT a Christian but seeking to find out how Christians who believe in prophecy interpret a part of this prophecy.
================================================== =====
Once upon a time when I was a fundamentalist Christian, I believed that Ezekiel 37-39 was an interrupted prophecy. Chapter 37 (as I saw it) predicted the reutrn of Jews to life in their homeland of Israel today. Believing this, chapter 38 and 39 was the supposed to be about the almost immediate threat the Jews would come up against as god would bring an enemy against them from the north. At the time, I believed the enemy was the Soviet Union along with some allies, but after that empire dissolved, the attention turned to Russia.
Today, I am not sure what prophecy believing Christians make of the chapter as there is no immediate threat to Israel from Russia. Also, if, as some believe, the prophecy was for a time not far removed from the writer's time (he was seeing a period in his immediate future when the Babylonian exiled Jews would return to their homeland), then no such events happened other than the fact the nation did come back to life.
If the prophecy is still future as futurist have no choice but to believe, my question is, why does the author mention that the invaders would be riding horses and carrying archaic weapons in a day in a nuclear and high tech age? Doesn't this prove he did not "see" our modern times in his vision? While I realize if he was seeing such a vision as something to occur in the far future he would not recognize a military jet, tank or ship, what exactly would he have been seeing to equate modern weapons with a horses, spears, swords, shields?
I never considered these things back in the day so I am curious how the Christians of today are interpreting this?
That is why we interpret scripture by what we see and not fill in the blanks like who Magog is. No one knows for sure what Magog is. Back in the day and even now people practice an unorthodox style of interpreting revelations, calling Roman Catholic church the harlot and the pope, the priest of the anti-christ. If you just interpret it correctly and scripturally you won't run into these problems.
Furthermore to answer your question about horses, horseman etc......You have to remember God was showing this prophet a vision he could understand and interpret, in his time he only knew of horseman and chariots. He would not be able to comprehend missiles and armored tanks nor was it in his vocabulary but through this vision he was given we can literally grasp that he is referring to a heavily armed group of soldiers and not a flock of birds.
You have to remember God was showing this prophet a vision he could understand and interpret, in his time he only knew of horseman and chariots. He would not be able to comprehend missiles and armored tanks nor was it in his vocabulary but through this vision he was given we can literally grasp that he is referring to a heavily armed group of soldiers and not a flock of birds.
This is a standard answer I used to use and hear, but somehow it seems quite begging. The writer talks about this invader coming into Israel to attack "unwalled cities" and seeking to loot the land and they will arrive on horses. Doesn't this sound more like something from ancient times as opposed to details that would lead one to believe this is something in our times. Military weapons and leaders of today are not worried about "unwalled cities" as no such thing can stand in their way today.
In addition, while we should not speculate at to who Gog or Magog is, as you say, we know about Libya, Ethiopia and Persia (Iran). I take it that some place in time, Ethiopia is going to become an avowed enemy of Israel?
This is a standard answer I used to use and hear, but somehow it seems quite begging. The writer talks about this invader coming into Israel to attack "unwalled cities" and seeking to loot the land and they will arrive on horses. Doesn't this sound more like something from ancient times as opposed to details that would lead one to believe this is something in our times. Military weapons and leaders of today are not worried about "unwalled cities" as no such thing can stand in their way today.
In addition, while we should not speculate at to who Gog or Magog is, as you say, we know about Libya, Ethiopia and Persia (Iran). I take it that some place in time, Ethiopia is going to become an avowed enemy of Israel?
Of course it sound like ancient times. God wanted this prophet to understand what he was seeing. He was not literally seeing the future, with sky scrapers, trains etc... but he was receiving a literal interpretation of the future he could comprehend.
As far as I know the world is angry at Israel and give it time with joblessness, scarcity of resources like oil and the world can turn ugly over night which the bible claims it happens in 3 years during tribulation so to compare Revelation to the world we see today is really not fair.
Of course it sound like ancient times. God wanted this prophet to understand what he was seeing. He was not literally seeing the future, with sky scrapers, trains etc... but he was receiving a literal interpretation of the future he could comprehend.
Well, why can't we just take it "literally" as it is written? Is it because the prophecy was never fulfilled and as with other prophecies, it has to continue being shoved into the future? How would a Christian in 1317 have interpreted this? Would he or she have figured the prophet was writing about bombs, military rifles, Black Hawk helicopters and so forth?
This reminds me of the Jesus figure in the book of Revelation. Why is he riding a white horse? In an ancient world that would seem an appropriate picture, but in this world we live in, it seems rather, well, ancient.
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As far as I know the world is angry at Israel and give it time with joblessness, scarcity of resources like oil and the world can turn ugly over night which the bible claims it happens in 3 years during tribulation so to compare Revelation to the world we see today is really not fair.
I take it this is supposed to explain how Ethiopia will come to hate Israel? This, a place linked to Israel from ancient times?
NOTE: I am NOT a Christian but seeking to find out how Christians who believe in prophecy interpret a part of this prophecy.
================================================== =====
Once upon a time when I was a fundamentalist Christian, I believed that Ezekiel 37-39 was an interrupted prophecy. Chapter 37 (as I saw it) predicted the reutrn of Jews to life in their homeland of Israel today. Believing this, chapter 38 and 39 was the supposed to be about the almost immediate threat the Jews would come up against as god would bring an enemy against them from the north. At the time, I believed the enemy was the Soviet Union along with some allies, but after that empire dissolved, the attention turned to Russia.
Today, I am not sure what prophecy believing Christians make of the chapter as there is no immediate threat to Israel from Russia. Also, if, as some believe, the prophecy was for a time not far removed from the writer's time (he was seeing a period in his immediate future when the Babylonian exiled Jews would return to their homeland), then no such events happened other than the fact the nation did come back to life.
If the prophecy is still future as futurist have no choice but to believe, my question is, why does the author mention that the invaders would be riding horses and carrying archaic weapons in a day in a nuclear and high tech age? Doesn't this prove he did not "see" our modern times in his vision? While I realize if he was seeing such a vision as something to occur in the far future he would not recognize a military jet, tank or ship, what exactly would he have been seeing to equate modern weapons with a horses, spears, swords, shields?
I never considered these things back in the day so I am curious how the Christians of today are interpreting this?
To answer your question, there are basically two groups: 1. Traditional mainstream Christians like Lutherans and Catholics and Greek Orthodox are going to tend to interpret this in light of what Christians have been teaching for the last 1800+ years.
They are going to say that Chapter 37 is talking about a resurrection of the dead, as in the Messianic era, rather than a metaphor for modern Israeli political restoriation.
2. Reformed Protestants are going to make their own interpretations, and those can differ dramatically even between themselves. Some liberal Reformed Protestants can say that it is a metaphor for ancient Israel to come together again as a political nation, and they will emphasize seeing this in terms of old historical context. Others like "Christian Zionists" sometimes invent a viewpoint where they see it as talking about the modern secular Israeli political state, which is a mistake, because Chapter 37 is talking about restoration/resurrection in connection with the Messiah, who is mentioned midway through the chapter.
You ask:
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If the prophecy is still future as futurist have no choice but to believe, my question is, why does the author mention that the invaders would be riding horses and carrying archaic weapons in a day in a nuclear and high tech age? Doesn't this prove he did not "see" our modern times in his vision?
I agree with your point. A "Christian Zionist" who already mistakenly equates Ezekiel 37's talk about Messianic era resurrection with modern secular politics could think up different rationalizations for the question you are asking, like mistakenly claiming that a tank is just a horse, or else that armies today have a couple horses now and then.
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Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane
This is a standard answer I used to use and hear, but somehow it seems quite begging. The writer talks about this invader coming into Israel to attack "unwalled cities" and seeking to loot the land and they will arrive on horses. Doesn't this sound more like something from ancient times as opposed to details that would lead one to believe this is something in our times. Military weapons and leaders of today are not worried about "unwalled cities" as no such thing can stand in their way today.
In addition, while we should not speculate at to who Gog or Magog is, as you say, we know about Libya, Ethiopia and Persia (Iran). I take it that some place in time, Ethiopia is going to become an avowed enemy of Israel?
Great points, InsInDaMem.
Actually BTW, today the Israelis have in fact built a vast giant Wall running from the north of the Israeli state to the South, even bigger than the Berlin Wall. So talking about an invasion against "unwalled" territory or cities doesn't sound quite right either.
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Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane
Well, why can't we just take it "literally" as it is written? Is it because the prophecy was never fulfilled
Great question. If we take it literally, it is about an Israeli-Ethiopian war. If we don't take it literally, then it might not even be about a literal Israel at all, and maybe we could even see it as a visionary prophecy about the Church as another version of Israel. Things become more questionable when we say we don't have to take it literally.
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This reminds me of the Jesus figure in the book of Revelation. Why is he riding a white horse? In an ancient world that would seem an appropriate picture, but in this world we live in, it seems rather, well, ancient.
Riding a white horse was seen as a royal sign of dignity. It actually is not really so ancient, InInDaMem. At the end of WWII, the hero General Zhukov on Red Square rode a white horse for victory as a special celebration.
You can see the photo here: http://i.imgur.com/KN6nir4.jpg
Quote:
As far as I know the world is angry at Israel and give it time with joblessness, scarcity of resources like oil and the world can turn ugly over night which the bible claims it happens in 3 years during tribulation so to compare Revelation to the world we see today is really not fair.
I take it this is supposed to explain how Ethiopia will come to hate Israel? This, a place linked to Israel from ancient times?[/quote]
This is another great point by you.
I agree. Ethiopia needs to be taken metaphorically or else as something that applies to the past, not about an Israeli-Ethiopian war in 2017.
Actually BTW, today the Israelis have in fact built a vast giant Wall running from the north of the Israeli state to the South, even bigger than the Berlin Wall. So talking about an invasion against "unwalled" territory or cities doesn't sound quite right either.
NOTE: I am NOT a Christian but seeking to find out how Christians who believe in prophecy interpret a part of this prophecy.
================================================== =====
Once upon a time when I was a fundamentalist Christian, I believed that Ezekiel 37-39 was an interrupted prophecy. Chapter 37 (as I saw it) predicted the reutrn of Jews to life in their homeland of Israel today. Believing this, chapter 38 and 39 was the supposed to be about the almost immediate threat the Jews would come up against as god would bring an enemy against them from the north. At the time, I believed the enemy was the Soviet Union along with some allies, but after that empire dissolved, the attention turned to Russia.
Today, I am not sure what prophecy believing Christians make of the chapter as there is no immediate threat to Israel from Russia. Also, if, as some believe, the prophecy was for a time not far removed from the writer's time (he was seeing a period in his immediate future when the Babylonian exiled Jews would return to their homeland), then no such events happened other than the fact the nation did come back to life.
If the prophecy is still future as futurist have no choice but to believe, my question is, why does the author mention that the invaders would be riding horses and carrying archaic weapons in a day in a nuclear and high tech age? Doesn't this prove he did not "see" our modern times in his vision? While I realize if he was seeing such a vision as something to occur in the far future he would not recognize a military jet, tank or ship, what exactly would he have been seeing to equate modern weapons with a horses, spears, swords, shields?
I never considered these things back in the day so I am curious how the Christians of today are interpreting this?
Ezekiel chapter 37 happened only briefly, that is, if you believe in Jesus.
Jesus came and took two men and made them one stick, ''Ephraim and Judah.''
Gentiles came getting betrothed to a Jew and so in the land of Joseph Israel had been sitting there dead for 700 years, the ten tribes lost into the nations when God ended the northern kingdom. Then a Messiah came and he sent out the friend of the bridegroom to prepare gentiles to fill a void where the ten tribes were dead.
Messiah came to make a covenant with Ephraim and Judah where they became one stick in his hand, but Ephraim had been lost and so they first needed to be found. There was 7000 of Israel mixed in with Judah at the time when Jesus came, but he reached his hand out to the land of Ephraim, the land of Naphtali and Zebulun in the land of Joseph that had been oppressed for 700 years. Those lost members of Israel sat in the land of darkness until they saw the light of a Jew offering them a betrothal that would raise them up and redeem them and suddenly the void in Israel was being filled by tens of thousands.
Unfortunately, the gentiles were not brave enough to stand as Jews because there was a high price to pay for a gentile who looked and acted like a Jew.
So the same history of Jeroboam repeated itself. The day that Ephraim left David is the exact same event when Christianity under the name of Ephraim got up and walked away from Judah and Jerusalem.
God has seeded people in the nations and they came suddenly, filling a great void where there was only death, now thousands would come and even the whole world would come but not yet.
The stick of Judah and Ephraim became one in Messiah's hand until that brotherhood was broken in pieces and now we wait on the return of the prodigal son named Christianity. Christianity left the word of the father and his brother alone to do the work while they went out into the nations and became gentiles herding swine until they realized and said to themselves,'' I am a dead man.''
It is then that they decide to return to the father and brother they left, and Judah still walks with God.
Christianity did exactly what the ten tribes did and now they are dead for the same reason until they begin to return, but the bones in that valley was certainly raised up and a void was suddenly filled until they became dead.
Last edited by Hannibal Flavius; 04-05-2017 at 11:07 AM..
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