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Something else I've been wondering about is this. Several have said that UR does not teach that those who die in their sins have their sins purified in the lake of fire. Fair enough. But that raises another question: If their carnal nature is what is being purified, why is the "eternal fire" referred to as a place of "punishment" in Matthew 25:46? Wouldn't it have been better to say, "these will go away into purification"?
So, then, what does the lake of fire purify the people of, who die in their sins? And what is the scriptural basis for your answer?
The lake of fire refines the mass of unbelievers and burns up their works, it purifies them and makes them righteous. This fire ultimately saves. In a sense, the lake of fire is God and Christ. The lake of fire is God's righteous judgment on the world. God's judgments have a purpose: to teach people righteousness.
What did Christ do on the cross? He atoned for the sins of mankind. He was the sacrifice that takes away the sin of the world. YET take note here. Believers must STILL be purified and made righteous. Believers will have their works judged, the wood and straw are burned up (the carnal nature must die), and the works of gold and silver (done through Christ) will be refined and made perfect. Thus the believer is saved, so as through fire, through Christ. Christ/God is the consuming fire.
This is a big topic that requires a lot of study for a full answer, probably too much for one post, so I hope you can bear with me without jumping in with statements claiming "YOUR OUT OF CONTEXT". If you are so inclined, read these articles first. I realize it is a lot, but it would be helpful:
1. Throughout the bible fire is used as a symbol of judgment, as a symbol of refining and purification, and as a symbol of God himself. The first thing you need to realize (hopefully you already do) is that the Lake of Fire described in Revelations is not a literal lake with literal fire in it. Revelations is a book filled with symbols, from Chapter 1 to 22. Can literal fire torment a non-physical being like Satan? Is literal fire going to do anything to Hades and Death, which are thrown into the lake of fire? The lake of fire is spiritual and it consumes spiritually.
2. Believers are judged by fire now in this life. This is so they will be purified and refined:
1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you
1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1 Cor 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
This is what God's fiery judgments do for believers.
3. God is not a respecter of persons. Unbelievers too will need to be refined and purified, just as believers in this life are. They too will need to come to Christ. Of course they will no longer be unbelievers when they are face to face with God's presence.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
First notice this is a judgment of works. Salvation is not dependent on works, but on God's grace.
The bible instructs us to compare scripture with scripture. Compare with 1 Cor 3:12-15 again. They use the same terminology:
Every man ... judged by fire ... according to their works.
This is the process that every man must go through. We are all judged by fire according to our works, yet 1 Cor 3 tells us we are saved so as by fire.
Remember God is not a respecter of persons... does God judge believer's works by fire, and save them, and then judge unbeliever's works in the same exact manner and not save them? God has told us He is the savior of the world and wills to save all men - He will do it.
4. The grace of God saves us all. It is related to this fire that we all go through.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
This tells us what the grace of God does, which has appeared to all men. It teaches us to deny ungodliness and world lusts - it teaches us to be righteous. This is done through the aforementioned fiery trials.
Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
10Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
See, the wicked will not learn righteousness from God's favour, but when God's judgments come, then all will learn righteousness. That is what all these different fires are for - to teach people righteousness through God's grace and through God's judgments.
When the people have learned righteousness - they will be righteous - they will no longer sin. Christ will have taken away their sin. That is what Christ does - He makes all righteous.
Its all tied together: grace, fire (including the lake of fire), judgment, Christ, God.
1 Tim 2:4 tells us God will have all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.
Hab 2:14 For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
This is all speaking to all men learning of God, all men coming to a knowledge of the truth, all men learning righteousness. When all are righteous, God will have saved all men. Torturing some forever does not fit in here anywhere.
Something else I've been wondering about is this. Several have said that UR does not teach that those who die in their sins have their sins purified in the lake of fire. Fair enough. But that raises another question: If their carnal nature is what is being purified, why is the "eternal fire" referred to as a place of "punishment" in Matthew 25:46? Wouldn't it have been better to say, "these will go away into purification"?
The concordant literal renders it like this:
Matt 25:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
Chastening for the eons. Chastening is what God does to His sons in this life. The unbelievers are chastened later.
Rotherham's Emphasized bible translates it as "age-abiding correction". These are literal translations.
I want all to be saved . . . I want Universal Salvation to be truth . . . but here is what the bible says . . . and it is in TOTAL opposition to the All will be saved message . . . .
“6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.”
[Romans 2:6-11 - KJV]
“…24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
[John 5:24-29 - KJV]
“…26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
[John 10:26-28 - KJV]
In answer to the post . . . yes, it is another gospel . . .
I want all to be saved . . . I want Universal Salvation to be truth . . . but here is what the bible says . . . and it is in TOTAL opposition to the All will be saved message . . . .
Hmmm.
Quote:
“6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.”
[Romans 2:6-11 - KJV]
This doesn't say they are not ultimately saved. Yet 1 Tim 2:4 says all are saved.
Quote:
“…24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
[John 5:24-29 - KJV]
Its not a resurrection to "damnation", but a resurrection to judgment.
Concordant Literal:
John 5:29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.
And as I have shown in the above post, God's judgments are righteous and are for the purpose of making people righteous.
Quote:
“…26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
[John 10:26-28 - KJV]
How does this show the rest are not saved? God can save people who have perished. Perish just means death/destruction... Isa 57:1 tells us even the righteous perish. Jesus can save the destroyed, all is possible with God.
Quote:
In answer to the post . . . yes, it is another gospel . . .
In your opinion, but the scriptures you show aren't conclusive that anyone is not saved. It is conclusive that people are judged. Do not assume judgment=damned forever. God's judgments are for the purpose of making people righteous.
This doesn't say they are not ultimately saved. Yet 1 Tim 2:4 says all are saved.
Its not a resurrection to "damnation", but a resurrection to judgment.
Concordant Literal:
John 5:29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.
And as I have shown in the above post, God's judgments are righteous and are for the purpose of making people righteous.
How does this show the rest are not saved? God can save people who have perished. Perish just means death/destruction... Isa 57:1 tells us even the righteous perish. Jesus can save the destroyed, all is possible with God.
In your opinion, but the scriptures you show aren't conclusive that anyone is not saved. It is conclusive that people are judged. Do not assume judgment=damned forever. God's judgments are for the purpose of making people righteous.
Hmmmm . . . . . it's getting late, but will reply to this tomorrow, be blessed Lego . . .
The lake of fire refines the mass of unbelievers and burns up their works, it purifies them and makes them righteous. This fire ultimately saves. In a sense, the lake of fire is God and Christ. The lake of fire is God's righteous judgment on the world. God's judgments have a purpose: to teach people righteousness.
What did Christ do on the cross? He atoned for the sins of mankind. He was the sacrifice that takes away the sin of the world. YET take note here. Believers must STILL be purified and made righteous. Believers will have their works judged, the wood and straw are burned up (the carnal nature must die), and the works of gold and silver (done through Christ) will be refined and made perfect. Thus the believer is saved, so as through fire, through Christ. Christ/God is the consuming fire.
This is a big topic that requires a lot of study for a full answer, probably too much for one post, so I hope you can bear with me without jumping in with statements claiming "YOUR OUT OF CONTEXT". If you are so inclined, read these articles first. I realize it is a lot, but it would be helpful:
1. Throughout the bible fire is used as a symbol of judgment, as a symbol of refining and purification, and as a symbol of God himself. The first thing you need to realize (hopefully you already do) is that the Lake of Fire described in Revelations is not a literal lake with literal fire in it. Revelations is a book filled with symbols, from Chapter 1 to 22. Can literal fire torment a non-physical being like Satan? Is literal fire going to do anything to Hades and Death, which are thrown into the lake of fire?
How do I know? If it is a special fire created by God, or a fire that is even God himself, who knows for sure whether it can inflict pain on a spiritual being?
Quote:
2. Believers are judged by fire now in this life. This is so they will be purified and refined:
1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you
A trial is a testing, not a judgment. The word for "trial" in this verse is πειρασμον, which means "a putting to proof."
Quote:
1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Isn't the final question here kind of pointless if the judgment faced by believers is the same as that faced by those who die in their sins?
Quote:
1 Cor 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Quote:
This is what God's fiery judgments do for believers.
Note in v. 13 that it says that the fire will "try" the work. Is a trial really the same as a judgment?
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3. God is not a respecter of persons. Unbelievers too will need to be refined and purified, just as believers in this life are. They too will need to come to Christ. Of course they will no longer be unbelievers when they are face to face with God's presence.
Well, this is what you believe.
Quote:
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Quote:
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Now we see a judgment, but it is not a testing of works by fire, as in the 1 Cor. 3 passage. That fiery testing of works is only for those who built upon the one foundation in this life, i.e., believers.
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The bible instructs us to compare scripture with scripture. Compare with 1 Cor 3:12-15 again.
That is where you err. Here is the 1 Cor. 3 passage in context, with some points of my own interspersed throughout:
5What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.
Paul is referring to his apostolic missionary work, as well as that of Apollos.
7So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.
He points out that neither Paul nor Apollos are people to follow (see v. 4) since neither one "is anything." God is the one to follow because he causes the growth.
8Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
No matter what the type of labor each apostle is doing, they are both equal. One is not better than another.Their rewards might differ depending on each one's respective labor, but they themselves are equal.Neither one should be followed; only God should be followed.
9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
Who were these "fellow workers"? It was Paul and Apollos, apostles who preached the gospel.
10According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
Paul laid the foundation, which was Christ (as stated in the next verse). He preached Christ in the gospel. Someone else, though, built on that. He then goes on to say that each man must be careful how he builds on that foundation, Christ. Thus, Paul is talking about Christian ministry, work in and for the church. Therefore, only believers and their works are in view.
11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
The fire will "test" each man's work. When Paul says "each man," it is clear that he is referring to men who do ministry work in and for the church, since all along that is what he has been talking about.
Notice also that the word "judge" is not used in this passage. The word "test" is, though. The fire tests the work and in so doing reveals its true nature, whether it has quality or not.
14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Any believer whose work remains will be saved, yet so as through fire.
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They use the same terminology:
Every man ... judged by fire ... according to their works.
This is the process that every man must go through. We are all judged by fire according to our works, yet 1 Cor 3 tells us we are saved so as by fire.
Christians are, not every man.
Quote:
Remember God is not a respecter of persons... does God judge believer's works by fire, and save them, and then judge unbeliever's works in the same exact manner and not save them?
That is just it: He does not judge unbelievers' works in the same exact manner. Interpreting 1 Cor. 3 in its context bears this out.
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God has told us He is the savior of the world and wills to save all men - He will do it.
God willed that Israel should obey him and keep his commands, and yet they did not do so:
"Oh that they had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me and keep all My commandments always, that it may be well with them and with their sons forever!" (Deuteronomy 5:29)
And yet we know that this did not happen.
Jesus said, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling." (Matthew 23:37)
Just because God wills something does not mean that he does not allow something to go against that will.
Quote:
Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Quote:
10Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
See, the wicked will not learn righteousness from God's favour, but when God's judgments come, then all will learn righteousness. That is what all these different fires are for - to teach people righteousness through God's grace and through God's judgments.
Does this Isaiah passage speak of judgments that take place in this life?
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