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if you believe Jesus died for the whole entire world?
Please this is not a thread for the young Christian who is still spiritually immature. I don't want this thread to be a stumbling block for you so don't read. Keep studying and find the path through scripture and sound biblical teaching
I have been studying justification and imputed righteousness and my head is ready to explode in asking an arminian pastor some questions. As I understand it that when Christ took all our sins upon Him and died on the cross for us meaning we have been forgiven, we are perfect, unblemished in God's sight is the first phase of imputed righteousness where God imputed our sins on Jesus which in turn only gets us out of hell but not into heaven because we are not justified yet in the eyes of God
(Matthew 5:20) 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
so comes the second phase of imputed righteousness where God imputes Christ righteousness to us. We are not righteous only pronounced as righteouness through Jesus finished work on the cross.
(Philippians 3:9) 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
In order to be be justified to go to heaven one must have faith in Christ
(Romans 4:9–11) 9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.
My question if you an arminian etc.....believe that Jesus died for the whole world (every man, woman and child) then if they don't have faith come judgment and can't enter into heaven then where do they go since their sins were wiped away on the cross thus no condemnation? Help me out here please. Is there something I am missing?
My understanding of Arminianism (I suppose I was Arminian at one time) is that they believe Jesus died for the whole world because that is what scripture says.
However they believe this was really only an offer of salvation that is only effective if one believes and accepts the offer. So Christ did indeed take away all the sins of the world, yet it means nothing if the individual rejects the offer.
Calvinists will point out that this leads to the following situation: Christ takes away all sins, yet people still go to hell... why should someone be punished in hell if they have no sin? Which then the Calvinist will conclude that Christ didn't die for all people (even though this on the surface seems to contradict scripture).
Relevant points:
- we are saved by grace through faith, and neither of these is of ourself. They are both a gift of God. No man can boast.
- God has given each man a measure of faith
- God is the one with the grace
- its all in God's hands, He is the one in control, He is the one who saves. We don't have "veto power" on God's decision to save someone.
Not sure if this helps with your specific questions about "imputation" and "justification", but keep searching for the truth Fundy.
if you believe Jesus died for the whole entire world?
Please this is not a thread for the young Christian who is still spiritually immature. I don't want this thread to be a stumbling block for you so don't read. Keep studying and find the path through scripture and sound biblical teaching
I have been studying justification and imputed righteousness and my head is ready to explode in asking an arminian pastor some questions. As I understand it that when Christ took all our sins upon Him and died on the cross for us meaning we have been forgiven, we are perfect, unblemished in God's sight is the first phase of imputed righteousness where God imputed our sins on Jesus which in turn only gets us out of hell but not into heaven because we are not justified yet in the eyes of God
(Matthew 5:20) 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
so comes the second phase of imputed righteousness where God imputes Christ righteousness to us. We are not righteous only pronounced as righteouness through Jesus finished work on the cross.
(Philippians 3:9) 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
In order to be be justified to go to heaven one must have faith in Christ
(Romans 4:9–11) 9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.
My question if you an arminian etc.....believe that Jesus died for the whole world (every man, woman and child) then if they don't have faith come judgment and can't enter into heaven then where do they go since their sins were wiped away on the cross thus no condemnation? Help me out here please. Is there something I am missing?
Well, I'm not an arminian (as I understand it, arminianism says you can lose your salvation, which is not true) but let me answer the question. The work that Christ did on the Cross paid the penalty for every single sin in the human race, past, present and future. Sin is therefore not the issue in salvation. This takes man out of the debit side of the ledger (think accounting), but it does not put man on the credit side of the ledger. The problem of sin and the penalty for sin was taken out of the way by Christ. BUT until a person believes in Christ, God the Father does not impute His righteousness to that person and therefore be able to pronounce him justified. It is the imputation of divine righteousness and the resulting justification that puts a man onto the credit side of the ledger. Justification is an official judicial act of God that occurs whenever a member of the human race places his trust in Christ for salvation.
Jesus Christ paid for our sins. They are out of the way. But in order for a member of the human race to have an eternal relationship with God he has to have the same life (eternal life), and the same righteousness (perfect absolute righteousness) that God has. And the only way that man can have eternal life and perfect righteousness is for God to impute them to him. And that does not happen until a person does what God says. 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.' Acts 3:16. And No, 'believing' is not works. Until a person believes in Christ, he is still in Adam, and he is still under eternal condemnation.
God gave man free will for the very purpose of choosing for or against God. God does not want robots. He wants beings who of their own free will, their own volition, choose for and appreciate God. Therefore, God made salvation available to all, so that WHOSOEVER believes in Him (Jesus Christ) should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16 ''For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
There is no ''gets us out of hell but not into heaven.'' If you don't believe in Christ for salvation, you are on a one way trip to the eternal lake of fire in spite of what Christ accomplished on the Cross. What Christ did on the Cross makes justification and sanctification and eternal life available to the human race. But it is faith in Christ that is the means, the vehicle by which God's offer of salvation is made a reality for whosoever believes in Christ. Even though Christ paid the penalty for our sins, those who don't believe in Christ still die in their sins. John 8:24 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.''
Christ accomplished everything that needed to be done so that salvation can be offered to all, but it is only received by whosoever will trust in Him (believe-have faith) for salvation.
Salvation is freely given to those who will receive it thought faith in Christ. Salvation is free for man because Jesus Christ paid the price.
I have been studying justification and imputed righteousness and my head is ready to explode in asking an arminian pastor some questions. As I understand it that when Christ took all our sins upon Him and died on the cross for us meaning we have been forgiven, we are perfect, unblemished in God's sight is the first phase of imputed righteousness where God imputed our sins on Jesus which in turn only gets us out of hell but not into heaven because we are not justified yet in the eyes of God
Justification before God is a one time event that occurred at the cross for the impious (all sinners). These scriptures testify to that truth:
Rom 5:6 For in our being still ailing, Christ in due time did die for the impious;
Rom 5:9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.
Our justification is an accomplished fact. It happened at the cross in Christ's blood.
Faith, on the other hand, arrives to the sinner, in time, when the Holy Spirit wills. And when faith arrives it believes that justification is complete in Christ. It is that knowledge that brings the righteousness of God to us. God reckons (imputes) Christ's righteousness to us through faith when we believe upon Him who is justifying the ungodly. When we believe the Gospel.
In God's view, we have been justified at the cross. In our minds, we perceive ourselves as justified when we believe. It really depends from what perspective you are looking at justification from, and how scripture is presenting it to us.
Here is an example of how scripture proclaims both views of reconciliation together. God is said to have reconciled the world to Himself, and yet we are to call the sinner to "be ye reconciled to God":
2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:20 in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech, in behalf of Christ, `Be ye reconciled to God;'
None the less, believers are to walk by the Spirit (faith) and not by the flesh. This is why we (believers) know that all will, in time, be brought to glory:
Rom 8:30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 02-12-2010 at 12:24 PM..
Good points all, legoman, Mike555 and AlabamaStorm.
The overriding concept of Jesus' payment was just as much an example for man's flesh as it was the umbrella sacrifice, imo. No man will enter the Kingdom without a crucifixion (burning) of his carnal flesh - or the "old man".
Christians are to follow with their cross in order to accomplish this and be conformed to His nature through the Spirit's work in us. Those that are not given grace in this age are still under the covenant, imo - though they know it not.
Well, I'm not an arminian (as I understand it, arminianism says you can lose your salvation, which is not true) but let me answer the question. The work that Christ did on the Cross paid the penalty for every single sin in the human race, past, present and future. Sin is therefore not the issue in salvation. This takes man out of the debit side of the ledger (think accounting), but it...........
Then Mike what happens to those who don't believe. I mean if Christ paid the price for their sins on the cross and they are unblemished and perfect now as far as a sin debt how can they go to hell when their debt has been paid?
Justification before God is a one time event that occurred at the cross for the impious (all sinners). These scriptures testify to that truth:
No I am sorry Alabama but justification does not occur at the cross alone. Jesus taking on our sins and dieing on the cross does not justify us. It only removes our sin debt. We are only justified when we have faith in Christ and now the righteounsness of Christ is imputed to us.
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 02-12-2010 at 03:13 PM..
My understanding of Arminianism (I suppose I was Arminian at one time) is that they believe Jesus died for the whole world because that is what scripture says.
However they believe this was really only an offer of salvation that is only effective if one believes and accepts the offer. So Christ did indeed take away all the sins of the world, yet it means nothing if the individual rejects the offer.
Calvinists will point out that this leads to the following situation: Christ takes away all sins, yet people still go to hell... why should someone be punished in hell if they have no sin? Which then the Calvinist will conclude that Christ didn't die for all people (even though this on the surface seems to contradict scripture).
Relevant points:
- we are saved by grace through faith, and neither of these is of ourself. They are both a gift of God. No man can boast.
- God has given each man a measure of faith
- God is the one with the grace
- its all in God's hands, He is the one in control, He is the one who saves. We don't have "veto power" on God's decision to save someone.
Not sure if this helps with your specific questions about "imputation" and "justification", but keep searching for the truth Fundy.
Excellent analysis and very accurate but for the contradiction part. I call it a paradox because there are many scriptures to support limited atonement as well. I am no where close to siding with the universalist view because I see way too many theological problems for the universalists in scripture.
How does a universalist come to believe that one can be saved when they don't believe?
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