Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Yes. Jesus was addressing the Pharisee's who were saying that Jesus was able to perform miracles because He was possessed by Beelzebul (Satan) and that He had an unclean spirit. In so doing, they were speaking against the Holy Spirit. Mark 3:22-30. Jesus was the Messiah and the Son of God, and yet the Pharisees were saying he was possessed by Satan. And so blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was tantamount to unbelief in Christ as the Messiah.
Only Jesus and the Apostles and a few of their associates could heal and perform other miracles in the way that they did. The gift of healing or miracles was a temporary spiritual gift that was not perpetuated beyond the completion of the written Cannon of Scripture. God can certainly heal someone if He chooses, but people who claim to have the gift of healing today are either charlatans or they are healing by the power of Satan. Here are a couple of links to further explain the temporary nature of these spiritual gifts. These of course are in contrast to the permanent spiritual gifts. I reallize there are many who think that healing as well as some of the other temporary spiritual gifts are still functional but they are wrong. As a matter of fact once the Apostles became well established, they could not heal any longer. See the second link for that.
Even if hypothetically speaking, people did have the gift of healing today (which they don't) and the scenario you described took place, those people doing the healing would have no bearing on anyones eternal salvation. Only faith in Christ determines the salvation of anyone. Therefore, attributing their healing and miracles to Satan would have no bearing on the eternal status of the one making the accusations.
Thanks for replying Mike...just wanted your perspective and reasoning on the issue. Yes, there are charlatans, no question...lot's of them. However...RE: someone healing sickness by the "power of satan": If Satan be divided against Satan, how then shall his kingdom stand? Satan came to bring sickness, evil, destruction, and death, not healing and health. He is the destroyer, not the healer...
There are those (including myself) who feel the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still active today...that they did not cease, that if anything they are more active today than ever. Are there "phony" gifts out there? Sure there are. But...there is a percentage that is real. That the unforgiveable sin could therefore still be committed, for example, by a person who saw healings or miracles being done by the Holy Spirit, and then claim that they are not of God, but are "of the devil", etc. I won't argue the point, because it would probably be an endless ongoing debate. I guess we'll just let it go at that, and agree to disagree. Therefore, let's move on...
1 Corinthians 13:8 ''Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge (there was a temporary spiritual gift of knowledge) it will be done away. 9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10) but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
Ok, you are quoting Pauls letter. Any understanding from this can only come from the Spirit's guidence.
Quote:
(the perfect refers to the completed Cannon of Scripture. Once the New Testament was completed, these temporary spiritual gifts ceased.
That is pure opinion. I happen to completely disagree this opinion, for if it was perfect, there would be no division over it.
...With regard to the gift of healing, that was a temporary spiritual gift...
Gifts of the spirit such as the gift of healing are of Christ and never will be done away except for those who fall into unbelief.
"Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:" 1 Corinthians 12: 4-10
"And again, I exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God, for they are many; and they come from the same God. And there are different ways that these gifts are administered; but it is the same God who worketh all in all; and they are given by the manifestations of the Spirit of God unto men, to profit them. And I would exhort you, my beloved brethren, that ye remember that every good gift cometh of Christ.
And I would exhort you, my beloved brethren, that ye remember that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and that all these gifts of which I have spoken, which are spiritual, never will be done away, even as long as the world shall stand, only according to the unbelief of the children of men." Moroni 10: 8,18-19
Had you read the links you would have had your answer.
I read the links ... and they did not provide a single scriptural reference for the gifts having been done away with in our own times, or at the time of the canonization of the new testament. The links suggested that "when the perfect comes" was to be understood as the canonization of the new testament, which in my opinion is hardly the meaning of the context of 1 Corinthians 13 ... When the perfect is come we will know God even as we are known by him, and no one can claim that at this point in time. None of us know God or Christ as well as the apostles who walked with Christ and were taught by him. To say that you or anyone else knows the mind of God now better than the apostles did in their day is to claim that you do not even need the bible or the new testament itself, seeing that it was they who wrote the new testament to begin with.
This is just more adding to the word if you ask me ...
Could it be that the reason that so many do not experience the work of God in their own lives by ministration of the gifts of the spirit is simply because they have wandered astray of the true gospel and therefore the spirit is not working through them? Could it be that they are simply of little faith and therefore cannot experience the gifts of the spirit due to their own unbelief? Could it be that though some may appear to have an outward form of "godliness", that they in fact much like the pharisees before them are actually spiritually bankrupt and therefore they themselves deny the power of God in the world and the power of the spirit which works through said gifts in our own times?
Thanks for replying Mike...just wanted your perspective and reasoning on the issue. Yes, there are charlatans, no question...lot's of them. However...RE: someone healing sickness by the "power of satan": If Satan be divided against Satan, how then shall his kingdom stand? Satan came to bring sickness, evil, destruction, and death, not healing and health. He is the destroyer, not the healer...
There are those (including myself) who feel the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still active today...that they did not cease, that if anything they are more active today than ever. Are there "phony" gifts out there? Sure there are. But...there is a percentage that is real. That the unforgiveable sin could therefore still be committed, for example, by a person who saw healings or miracles being done by the Holy Spirit, and then claim that they are not of God, but are "of the devil", etc. I won't argue the point, because it would probably be an endless ongoing debate. I guess we'll just let it go at that, and agree to disagree. Therefore, let's move on...
Bud
Agreed. One point however reqarding Satan, is that he can cause sickness, for instance, though demon possession (of unbelievers of course) and then remove the demon and restore health. (But it doesn't have to be through demon possession.) Job for instance. But Satan tries to cause confusion and muddy up the issue regarding God's plan for man. Counterfeit Saviors, false Gospels, etc...
Also, as the ruler of this world (John 12:31;14:30), Satan is trying to show God that he can actually run this world in an orderly manner. He's trying to justify his rebellion against God. He doesn't have the ability or character to do so, but he tries. If it suits his purpose he would heal someone that he was responsible for having made sick in the first place. It is an interesting thought to consider how much of man's accumulated knowledge of science may have had some help from Satan. Remember, that as the human race has accquired more secular knowledge it has moved further away from God. And then there's that evolution thing. Well anyway...just some rambling thoughts.
Ok, you are quoting Pauls letter. Any understanding from this can only come from the Spirit's guidence.
That is pure opinion. I happen to completely disagree this opinion, for if it was perfect, there would be no division over it.
To the contrary. The Bible is the written Word of God. It is the thinking of Christ set down in writing. It is the mind of Christ (1Cor. 2:16) and as such the Bible has existed in the mind of Christ from eternity past.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 '''All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect (mature), throughly furnished unto all good works.
The Word of God is perfect. Man is not. And this is the devils world, and there is much Satanic deception in the world with the intent of blinding man to the truth.
2 Timothy 2:15 ''Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
To the contrary. The Bible is the written Word of God. It is the thinking of Christ set down in writing. It is the mind of Christ (1Cor. 2:16) and as such the Bible has existed in the mind of Christ from eternity past.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 '''All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect (mature), throughly furnished unto all good works.
The Word of God is perfect. Man is not. And this is the devils world, and there is much Satanic deception in the world with the intent of blinding man to the truth.
2 Timothy 2:15 ''Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Do you think that this passage is describing all scripture including the one you quote? or is it that Paul is talking about the Old Testament scripture that had already been canonized?
In other words you are including scripture that was not scripture at the time it was written. When this letter to Timothy went out to Timothy it was not part of the scripture Paul was referring to.. so I don't think you can say any of this applies to the New Testament as we know it.
I read the links ... and they did not provide a single scriptural reference for the gifts having been done away with in our own times, or at the time of the canonization of the new testament. The links suggested that "when the perfect comes" was to be understood as the canonization of the new testament, which in my opinion is hardly the meaning of the context of 1 Corinthians 13 ... When the perfect is come we will know God even as we are known by him, and no one can claim that at this point in time. None of us know God or Christ as well as the apostles who walked with Christ and were taught by him. To say that you or anyone else knows the mind of God now better than the apostles did in their day is to claim that you do not even need the bible or the new testament itself, seeing that it was they who wrote the new testament to begin with.
This is just more adding to the word if you ask me ...
Could it be that the reason that so many do not experience the work of God in their own lives by ministration of the gifts of the spirit is simply because they have wandered astray of the true gospel and therefore the spirit is not working through them? Could it be that they are simply of little faith and therefore cannot experience the gifts of the spirit due to their own unbelief? Could it be that though some may appear to have an outward form of "godliness", that they in fact much like the pharisees before them are actually spiritually bankrupt and therefore they themselves deny the power of God in the world and the power of the spirit which works through said gifts in our own times?
Food for thought ...
As per post #40, the gift of healing was given to the Apostles, to some of their associates, and to the seventy. Once the Apostles were well established, they could no longer heal. The temporary spiritual gifts of prophecy, tongues, knowledge were discontinued with the completion of the written Cannon of Scripture. As a matter of fact, tongues was discontinued once the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed.
For the benefit of anyone who will go into the following link, it will explain why the gifts of healing, prophecy and tongues were temporary in nature.
Do you think that this passage is describing all scripture including the one you quote? or is it that Paul is talking about the Old Testament scripture that had already been canonized?
In other words you are including scripture that was not scripture at the time it was written. When this letter to Timothy went out to Timothy it was not part of the scripture Paul was referring to.. so I don't think you can say any of this applies to the New Testament as we know it.
This is actually a very interesting topic that was debated during the Protestant Reformation. Did you know that Martin Luther rejected the epistle of James as not being inspired by the Holy Spirit (he called it an epistle of straw)?
I've always wondered if it is within each persons liberty in Christ to determine what is, and is not scripture, by faith. Or, if collectively as the body of Christ, we have to accept what we've been told was canonized by the Church Fathers. It's an interesting topic nonetheless.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The Gifts of the Spirit never will be done away!
