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God is not willing that any of those little ones are not lost... why then are all of you saying they are lost... Was Jesus lying when he said God wants all to be saved? Does he not have the power to accomplish his pleasure? The word for NOT in NOT WILLING is NEVER.
Can God do something he is UNwilling to do, such as not save the ungodly? Who did Jesus set free? The free already or the one still in bondage...
I think some posters mix up our will and God's will....
Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
If it all depends on God's mercy.. then God's will be done... his will have all men saved...
John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Man's desire means nothing, it is only God's will that counts.
You kind of answered your own question for us with the passage. Jesus wants all to be saved; He wants everyone to come to Him, but you keep neglecting the part about God's holiness and just nature, which are other characteristics to define Him aside from love. What do you think happens when God's love is in opposition to God's justice and holiness? Which takes precedence? Ultimately, God gives us the faith needed to follow Him. However, because this is a relationship, man does play one small part. He must accept Christ, he must profess Christ is Lord, and then surrender to God so that God will mold Him as He sees fit. Apart from the initial profession of faith in Christ, God does everything else.
You kind of answered your own question for us with the passage. Jesus wants all to be saved; He wants everyone to come to Him, but you keep neglecting the part about God's holiness and just nature, which are other characteristics to define Him aside from love. What do you think happens when God's love is in opposition to God's justice and holiness? Which takes precedence? Ultimately, God gives us the faith needed to follow Him. However, because this is a relationship, man does play one small part. He must accept Christ, he must profess Christ is Lord, and then surrender to God so that God will mold Him as He sees fit. Apart from the initial profession of faith in Christ, God does everything else.
On the contrary I don't think God's justice is in competition with God's Love.
Justice according to Easton's Bible DictionaryIs rendering to every one that which is his due. It has been distinguished from equity in this respect, that while justice means merely the doing what positive law demands, equity means the doing of what is fair and right in every separate case.
Webster's definition #3- The rendering to every one his due or right; just treatment; requital of desert; merited reward or punishment; that which is due to one's conduct or motives.
Galatians 3:8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Good News beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you all the nations will be blessed."
ALL nations will be blessed... so God's justice is affecting all nations in a positive way...
How is God's justice contrary or in conflict with his Love? If you love your child you punish them... but for eternity? Without hope of an end to the punishment? or do you punish them so that they can learn what is right?
God's justice is for correction otherwise he is being cruel, not just. IMO
What do you think happens when God's love is in opposition to God's justice and holiness? Which takes precedence?
Have you ever meditated on this or talked to God about it? God is love. God is just. God is holy. There's no opposition! Love, justice, and holiness are ALL good!
I've seen two or three posts lately that say God's justice is different than our justice, implying what God really meant to say was that He was not really very fair at all. Justice has a definition. God doesn't have a separate one, but if He did it would be much more merciful than humans' because he is love and we are not.
On the contrary I don't think God's justice is in competition with God's Love.
Justice according to Easton's Bible DictionaryIs rendering to every one that which is his due. It has been distinguished from equity in this respect, that while justice means merely the doing what positive law demands, equity means the doing of what is fair and right in every separate case.
Webster's definition #3- The rendering to every one his due or right; just treatment; requital of desert; merited reward or punishment; that which is due to one's conduct or motives.
Galatians 3:8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Good News beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you all the nations will be blessed."
ALL nations will be blessed... so God's justice is affecting all nations in a positive way...
How is God's justice contrary or in conflict with his Love? If you love your child you punish them... but for eternity? Without hope of an end to the punishment? or do you punish them so that they can learn what is right?
God's justice is for correction otherwise he is being cruel, not just. IMO
You need to finish the rest of that verse in Galatians.
Galations 3:8-9: "The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: 'All nations will be blessed through you.' So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
When Paul was referring to all nations here, he was referring to the believers that reside in all nations. So yes, all nations are blessed. It just depends on how you want to interpret this passage. In regards to the second question, God's justice and holiness make it so that all sin is punished. Because God is holy, which means "to be apart from", He cannot reside with sin, thus Christ was needed to make people cleansed of their sin in order to stand in God's presence in the life after. However, as others have noted in previous posts, not everyone is recognized by God as His own, only those who believe truly and act upon the Father's will. Those "goats" are separated and then must enter the eternal flames. They are punished for their crimes, and God's holiness is maintained. By what standard are you judging how God administers justice? Yours or His own?
Have you ever meditated on this or talked to God about it? God is love. God is just. God is holy. There's no opposition! Love, justice, and holiness are ALL good!
I've seen two or three posts lately that say God's justice is different than our justice, implying what God really meant to say was that He was not really very fair at all. Justice has a definition. God doesn't have a separate one, but if He did it would be much more merciful than humans' because he is love and we are not.
Just to make a point here. How many times in the OT did God first send His prophets to the people of Israel to warn them of their sin and attempt to help them repent and turn back to Him? Quite a few times. Yet, what happened when the people refused? God brought punishment upon them all. He allowed Israel's enemies and natural disasters ravage the land and kill the people. Ultimately, the goal was to use these disasters to show the people their fallacy in turning from God, thus bringing them back into relationship. In this general outlay of the OT, we see all of God's characteristics. His love prompted the warnings and the eventual forgiveness of those who repented. However, we see His justice and holiness in that He would not tolerate sin, thus people were actually killed. In the overall scheme, it brought correction to the nation as you would suggest, but what about those who died? The punishment they received was not for correction because you can't change your ways when your dead. Thus, we see that God uses sentences as punishment as well as correction. Does this general scenario not show there are times when God's characteristics are in opposition?
By what standard are you judging how God administers justice? Yours or His own?
There it is again. I've heard that so many times on this forum. Justice is justice. Why is it so hard for some people to take the word "justice" literally, without thinking twice about an eternal lake of fire? Justice has a straightforward definition, but a fire can't even burn in a lake. In Rev. it talks about the Lamb of God, but I don't know anyone who takes that part literally and thinks we'll worship a baby sheep. Why not just give God the benefit of the doubt that He will literally administer justice?
Just to make a point here. How many times in the OT did God first send His prophets to the people of Israel to warn them of their sin and attempt to help them repent and turn back to Him? Quite a few times. Yet, what happened when the people refused? God brought punishment upon them all. He allowed Israel's enemies and natural disasters ravage the land and kill the people. Ultimately, the goal was to use these disasters to show the people their fallacy in turning from God, thus bringing them back into relationship. In this general outlay of the OT, we see all of God's characteristics. His love prompted the warnings and the eventual forgiveness of those who repented. However, we see His justice and holiness in that He would not tolerate sin, thus people were actually killed. In the overall scheme, it brought correction to the nation as you would suggest, but what about those who died? The punishment they received was not for correction because you can't change your ways when your dead. Thus, we see that God uses sentences as punishment as well as correction. Does this general scenario not show there are times when God's characteristics are in opposition?
I don't think so. Justice is the administering of deserved punishment or reward. He was patient with them, but after a while He determined they deserved death for their actions. There's a monumental difference between God putting someone to death, and God forever burning someone consciously throughout all eternity with no chance for escape. NO ONE at all deserves that, so that's what bugs me when people say that God is just in doing so. That is impossible. He's either just and won't burn people forever, or he isn't just. Also, the Bible doesn't say that people can't change their ways after they die. I believe the lake of fire will do exactly that.
Yes, that's right: 100%. He would like everybody to be saved. But, 100% of who?
That scripture speaks of sheepowned by the Father, and how He searches for the one who wanders off. Is everyone in the entire world therefore a sheep? No, not everyone. The Bible says there are other people referred to as "goats", not sheep. Their future outcome is not good:
Matthew 25:31-46
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
True: Father God would like everyone to be saved. But....not everyone is willing to believe. Not everyone will receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. Many will refuse to believe, and will eventually not find their names written in the Lamb's book of life on judgement day.That will be a day of separation of the sheep from the goats. The wheat will be separated from the chaff. The good will be separated from the evil. We ought to prepare ourselves now, while there is yet time...
Bud
Excellent response. The beauty of someone with a firm foundation in our Father with truth that can only come thru the Jesus Christ and the works of the Holy Spirit. Truly you are one of the sheep!!!
There it is again. I've heard that so many times on this forum. Justice is justice. Why is it so hard for some people to take the word "justice" literally, without thinking twice about an eternal lake of fire? Justice has a straightforward definition, but a fire can't even burn in a lake. In Rev. it talks about the Lamb of God, but I don't know anyone who takes that part literally and thinks we'll worship a baby sheep. Why not just give God the benefit of the doubt that He will literally administer justice?
We all know what justice means. However, it seems rather apparent that everyone has a different take on what constitutes justice; just look at this forum. Apparently, you and I have different takes on what justice is. Second, I never said anything about a burning lake of fire. I just said there is a hell, a place where people are forever isolated from God. What this constitutes I don't fully know. It could be a lake of fire or simply a place of darkness and despair. Who knows.
On a separate note that has no real weight, you say fire can't burn in a lake. But couldn't the God who made His Son, you know the embodiment of goodness and perfection, become sin also cause fire to burn on a lake. Which is more believable? God becoming sin or fire on a lake?
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