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Slam it as naive if you want, but the Bible is quite clear that Sheol/Hades are not the same place.
I think you mean Hell and Sheol/Hades, and as I've pointed out, that's not the case at all. You can respond to the reasons I've given you or you can concede, but "Nu-uh!" isn't a legitimate response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
In Revelation Hades is actually thrown into the lake of fire, so it ouldn't make any sense if they were the same place.
But the passage I pointed out in Luke shows that Hades is also a place of fiery torment. You want the words to have well defined, and non-overlapping semantic qualities, but that's just not what the evidence shows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Also, whether or not lake of fire is eternal really has nothing to do with the fact that they are two separate places. Yes, the rich man was tormented by fire in Hades, so there is fire, and there is fire in the third chamber if Hades too, Tartarus aka Abyss, where fallen angels are being tormented.
You're begging the question. You have to presuppose that they're not the same place in order to assert that Hades also has fiery torment. If you don't presuppose they're different then the fact that the defining characteristics of each perfectly match must lead to the conclusion that they're the same place.
Additionally, your argument is becoming increasingly naive. ταρταρος in the New Testament is simply an allusion to Hellenistic mythic imagery. It doesn't attest to a similar belief within Judaism or Christianity in any way, shape, or form. The other Judeo-Christian uses of the term (LXX Job 40:20; 41:24; Prov 30:16) have no equivalents from the MT (in 41:24 it's a misreading of יחשב as חשך). It is not appropriating the Classical mythology associated with it, nor does it conflate the latter with Jewish angelology. You're trying to concoct a complicated cosmology from a myopic reading of the text that is woefully ignorant of comparative lexicography. I suggest you take the time to learn Greek and Hebrew, and then read the primary literature, before you start asserting what the words can and cannot refer to. Here are some early Christians who reject your reading:
Sibylline Oracles 1.95-105 use the terms Gehenna and Tartarus interchangeably. In 2:290-302 of the same text these two places are described as the abode of the unrighteous.
The Book of Thomas, the Apocalypse of Paul 18, 34, 40, and the Acts of Thomas 32 use the terms Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus interchangeably.
Origen (Contra Celsum 6.25) quotes Celsus as saying "Gehenna, which is Tartarus." He goes on not to disagree with this equivalency, but to show that Gehenna is a place for the purification of souls, quoting Malachi: "He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver and of gold."
Eusebius (Praep. Ev. 7.16) says Tartarus is the abode that is fitting for the impious, speaking of humans, not angels.
Tertullian (De Universo 11.9-11, 37-43; De Res. Carn. 17; Apol. 47) describes Gehenna as the lowest portion of Hades.
As you can see form your own comment, you are the only one who says anything about anyone condemnig someone.
Please refrain from accusing me of things I have not done. Thanks
I simply said that you don't believe what the Bible says about the matter, and you added the rest. The Bible says in plain English that you will perish unless you believe in Christ, and you don't believe it, so when I say you don't believe it, I am merely stating a fact.
Hi Finn,
I'm sorry, but your very doctrine states that I AM condemned already, and to be saved from hell I must change and believe the Bible the way you do.
Therefore I am currently condemned both in your eyes and the eyes of your God.
Or have you changed your mind??
Sibylline Oracles 1.95-105 use the terms Gehenna and Tartarus interchangeably. In 2:290-302 of the same text these two places are described as the abode of the unrighteous.
The Book of Thomas, the Apocalypse of Paul 18, 34, 40, and the Acts of Thomas 32 use the terms Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus interchangeably.
Origen (Contra Celsum 6.25) quotes Celsus as saying "Gehenna, which is Tartarus." He goes on not to disagree with this equivalency, but to show that Gehenna is a place for the purification of souls, quoting Malachi: "He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver and of gold."
Eusebius (Praep. Ev. 7.16) says Tartarus is the abode that is fitting for the impious, speaking of humans, not angels.
Tertullian (De Universo 11.9-11, 37-43; De Res. Carn. 17; Apol. 47) describes Gehenna as the lowest portion of Hades.
the Sibylline Oracles teach a release from Gehenna
Origen was an universalist, as far as I know he states that Gehenna denotes both the valley of Hinnom and a place of punishment after death and that the Jews of his time consider this punishment to be temporal
Tartarus is used only in connection with angels in the bible, any other statement is based on Greek Mythology, Plato e.g. also believed in remedial punishment in Tartarus
The Ascension of Isaiah, an early Christian work, seems to teach annihilation in Gehenna, so do also Jewish sources
It seems there have been as many opinions about Gehenna in the past as nowadays, I would be interested in your own opinion?
I think you mean Hell and Sheol/Hades, and as I've pointed out, that's not the case at all. You can respond to the reasons I've given you or you can concede, but "Nu-uh!" isn't a legitimate response.
Right, Sheol/Hades and lake of fire are not the same place, and it is proven in the Bible as I already told you, and I also told you which part of the Bible proves it. As you read the Bible in a little more extensively you will learn that Sheol/Hades is a place where people went after their deaths and lake of fire is where they go after the day of judgement, and Hades itself will be thrown into the lake of fire. Just because there is torment in the bad side of Hades, doesn't mean is must be the same as the lake of tire.
It is helpful to read the Bible itself, as opposed to opinion pieces about it.
I don't know what nu-uh means. Sorry.
PS. Calling others naivie does not make you look smarter, only arrogant.
I'm sorry, but your very doctrine states that I AM condemned already, and to be saved from hell I must change and believe the Bible the way you do.
Therefore I am currently condemned both in your eyes and the eyes of your God.
Or have you changed your mind??
Peace to you,
brian
Do you really think your salvation depends on me?
I do not have a doctrine, but the Bible teaches that those who believe in Christ will have everlasting life, and those who don't will perish. So if you say you are condemned, then it simply means that you do not believe in Chirst. Period.
You should quit trying to spin and twist everything because you are not very good at it. You make it look too obvious.
could you give any references for this? in the Septuagint, sheol is translated with hades in every occurence as far as I know
I misspoke there. I meant to refer to translations in the Septuagint, not the New Testament. The Septuagint also uses θανατος, "death," and βοθρος, "hole" (Ezek 32:21).
The Greek αδης is also used to translate a number of Hebrew words and phrases, including "stones of the pit," "descending to the pit," "silence," "death," "to die," "deep darkness," and "place of destruction." The last one shows a movement toward the ideology of Hell from the New Testament. The Hebrew word is אבדון, and it only appears in very late texts. About this time we also see שאול associated with a place of punishment for the wicked (Ps 9:18; 31:18; 49:15; 55:16, 24; Prov 2:18-19; 5:5; 7:27; 9:18). If you look at the Qumran literature you find discussion of redemption from שאול as a place of destruction (1QH 3.19), and fiery punishment associated with it (1QH 17.13; 4Q381 10-11; 4QMa 8-10.1.18).
All this shows an ideological conflation of these different terms (Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, etc.) as the Second Temple Period drew to a close. By New Testament times there was considerable overlap, as I've said, and there's really no justification for the notion that each term preserves a unique ideology that fits as an discreet piece into a larger theology of the afterlife.
Right, Sheol/Hades and lake of fire are not the same place, and it is proven in the Bible as I already told you, and I also told you which part of the Bible proves it.
And I've explained why you're begging the question. You've not addressed that problem with your methodologies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
As you read the Bible in a little more extensively
I know that it's common on these discussion boards to belittle people you know nothing about as a part of this whole process of posturing, but you'll do better to save your breath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
you will learn that Sheol/Hades is a place where people went after their deaths and lake of fire is where they go after the day of judgement, and Hades itself will be thrown into the lake of fire. Just because there is torment in the bad side of Hades, doesn't mean is must be the same as the lake of tire.
Here's more of that naive, synchronic, and myopic exegesis I was talking about. I've addressed the fallacy of your suppositions here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
It is helpful to read the Bible itself, as opposed to opinion pieces about it.
I've read the Bible every single day in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic for years. Again, save your breath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
I don't know what nu-uh means. Sorry.
PS. Calling others naivie does not make you look smarter, only arrogant.
It's spelled "naive," and I called your exegesis naive, not you. I was also right about your exegesis.
the Sibylline Oracles teach a release from Gehenna.
As does/did Judaism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM
Origen was an universalist, as far as I know he states that Gehenna denotes both the valley of Hinnom and a place of punishment after death and that the Jews of his time consider this punishment to be temporal
And he's correct about that. Rabbinic literature puts the maximum duration of a person's stay in Gehenna at 12 months.
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM
Tartarus is used only in connection with angels in the bible, any other statement is based on Greek Mythology, Plato e.g. also believed in remedial punishment in Tartarus
2 Peter is the only original use of the term, and it's a literary allusion, like Paul's quotation of the Phaenomena. The uses in the Septuagint don't seem to derive from the Hebrew of the Masoretic Text, but do seem associated with the same equivalents rendered with αδης ("darkness," "pit," "depths").
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM
The Ascension of Isaiah, an early Christian work, seems to teach annihilation in Gehenna, so do also Jewish sources
It seems there have been as many opinions about Gehenna in the past as nowadays, I would be interested in your own opinion?
My own opinion is that there's no consistent ideology in the ancient literature. I try to promote the recognition of the pluriformity of religious beliefs in the ancient world.
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