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If you are a Christian, listening to the Holy Spirit, you know that the Bible is very clear about the Trinity.
Yes, yes, you question my Christianity, and I question yours. The game goes on and on.
I am born again and I speak in tongues, I attended seminary and was once even an assistant pastor. I do consider myself to be a Christian.
There are Christian groups who hold the Bible near and dear, who insist that the Bible be the only source of doctrine, since it is God's Word. And there are others [perhaps like yourself] who disagree.
I will pray for you. Perhaps God will one day open your eyes that you will see the Truth.
I have to agree with you, and my take on it, either you belive it or not. That's what faith is all about. The same applies to Jesus Christ as well. The bible doesn't directly teach that he was created, nor does it teach that he was not. We draw the conclusion looking at the evidence from Scripture as we all interpret it, thus the many different interpretations of who Jesus is.
My feeling is that you shouldn't have to draw a conclusion about God creating himself a costume name Jesus.... What part of the Bible causes that need?
Jesus was a man. He was in tune with God through God's spirit. In that way he was the only begotten and special. Jesus trusted God. Not like some today who say they trust God but leave their children to die because medicine is not God. Not like some today who say they trust God but believe God burns people forever. Jesus trusted that if he loved God and his neighbor as himself he would never go wrong.
Where in the bible does one find the need to conclude that God came down to earth in a Jesus costume?
That is my problem with the trinity... Well one of them.
People have difficulty understanding God's triune nature.
Well, the people who came up with the idea said it was a mystery that was beyond human comprehension. If you can explain the Hypostatic Union in simple terms, though, give it a shot.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
And because of their inability to comprehend the trinity, many people, rather than simply believing what the Bible has to say about it, choose to reject the reality of God's nature.
The Bible says absolutely nothing whatsoever about any triune nature. The Trinity is a 4th century CE innovation that is only said to have been developed from principles found scattered in the Bible, but not synthesized in any formal way. Even the staunchest of Trinitarians recognizes this.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
They can't make sense of the fact that with God, 1+1+1=1.
Because it doesn't make any sense. It's just something that is asserted to be true in spite of the fact that it doesn't make any sense.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
But God is not a physical being.
According to the Bible he is.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
He is Spirit.
But the very next chapter of John says that every person who is born of the spirit is also spirit. The predicate is identical. There's no difference between God's spiritual nature and the spiritual nature of one born of the spirit (according to the Gospel of John).
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Originally Posted by Mike555
If you shine 3 different lights at the same spot on a wall, you have one light. Each light is separate, yet one.
But you've dividing the substance, which is a heresy according to Trinitarianism.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
God's nature, or attributes, or essence is His light. His essence consists of His Sovereignty, Righteousness, Justice, Love, Eternal Life, Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Immutability, and Veracity.
But several of these characteristics aren't in the Bible. Omnipresence and immutability, for instance, are derived from a middle- and neo-Platonic ontology.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
God is One in Essence.
Also not biblical. The doctrine of homoousios was an innovation of the Council of Nicea. That's why several bishops didn't want to sign on, and some even tried to change the text when they went up to sign to read homoiousios, or "of like substance."
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Each of the three members of the Godhead possess the exact same characteristics or essence.
Except one is also a human being. That's not quite the exact same essence or characteristics.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
But God is shown in the Scriptures to be three different Persons.
The distinction between a being and a person in the ontological sense is another Trinitarian innovation. This was vernacular developed to explain the doctrine as they decided it had to be understood.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
There's a hymnal called 'Holy, Holy, Holy', which contains the phrase, 'God in three Persons, blessed Trinity'. And so He is.
Not a very good transliteration. I would suggest the following: shema yisrael yhwh eloheinu yhwh ehad.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Deuteronomy 6:4 'hear you Israel Yahweh Elohim-of us Yahweh one.
Elohim is plural and is yet said to be One.
Elohim in the Hebrew Bible is a concretized abstract plural. Originally, the plural אלהים was an abstraction and meant "deity," or "divinity." Thus the female deities of Phoenicia could be referenced with the masculine plural אלהים. The abstraction is equally applicable to all divinity, whether male or female. In the second millennium BCE the plural began to be used in reference to singular subjects all over the ancient Near East. In the Amarna letters, for example, the plural ilanu is used numerous times in reference to the pharaoh. This singular usage in reference to proper deities is also found at Ta'anach, Ugarit, Mari, Qatna, and elsewhere. Within Israel, after the repeated use of the abstract plural the term became concretized in reference to Israel's deity. It still maintained, however, its generic abstract, plural, and adjectival senses. The best way to translate the word when it is used singularly is "divinity," or "deity."
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Achd or Echad is a unified One. Anti-Trinitarians deny this, but what else is new.
No, אחד does not mean a unified one. The fundamental meaning is “one.” It is most commonly used to denote numerical singularity. Gen 1:9: “one place.” Exod 23:29: “in the first year.” Lev 4:27: “one soul.” Josh 23:10: “a single one of you.” Ps 14:3: “not even one.” It is related to the word יחיד, “only,” “single,” or “alone,” which is itself derived from the verbal root יחד, which can mean “be united,” “designate exclusively,” or “concentrate.” The fundamental sense is singularity, whether by unity or by separation. אחד means many things before it ever means “unity.”
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Originally Posted by Mike555
God is three Persons.
God the Father is God. This is not in dispute, so no more need be said on that. God the Father Himself declares that Jesus Christ is God.
And Hosea states that an angel is God (Hos 12:4-5). So does Manoah (Judg 13:22). Paul states that there are many gods (1 Cor 8:5). Psalm 97:7 tells the gods to worship God. Deut 10:17 says Yhwh is the God of gods (and Josh 22:22; Ps 136:2; Dan 2:47; 11:46). The word "god" does not necessarily refer to a single being. There's no reason Christ cannot be God, but not the Father.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Psalms 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom. 7) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Thy God, has anointed Thee With the oil of joy above Thy fellows.
This actually refers to David as a god, and to David's throne as eternal. This is why the text says "therefore, O God, your God has anointed you" (על־כן משחך אלהים אלהיך).
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Compared with Hebrews 1:8-9...
Hebrews 1:8 But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. 9) ''Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy companions.''
Hebrews 1 also manifests a late understanding of Deut 32:43. Originally, that texts read just like Psalm 97:7: השתחוו לו כל אלהים, "worship him, all you gods" (see 4QDeutq from the Dead Sea Scrolls). The Septuagint changed it to "let all the angels of God worship him, strengthen him, all you sons of God." The MT took this section entirely out, but Heb 1:6 quotes the first portion of the Septuagint reading. Lots of confusion, textual corruption, and non-standard texts found just there in Hebrews 1.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
John 1:1 declares that Jesus Christ is God. Jesus Christ is the Word, and the Word is declared to be God.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2) He was in the beginning with God.
God was with God. John 1:1 declares unequivocally the deity of Christ. So you don't understand it. Will you therefore dispute the Scriptures own testimony of Jesus Christ's deity? Will you?
It says he is divine, but it does not equate him with God the Father.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
The Holy Spirit is shown to be not merely a force or an influence, but a separate Person of the Godhead.
Jesus said in John 14:16 ''And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17) that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you.
The Holy Spirit is shown in John 14:16 to be a Person. Spoken of by use of personal pronouns (which are also present in the Greek). Jesus makes it clear that the Holy Spirit is not the Father. The Holy Spirit is ANOTHER helper who is Sent BY the Father.
The fact that the Greek uses a gender specific personal pronoun doesn't in any way indicate the subject is a person. All nouns have gender and can have personal pronouns in Greek.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, ''Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4) ''While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God.''
The Holy Spirit is declared by Peter to be God.
Not only does the word "god" not necessarily refer to the Father, but this kind of parallelism doesn't necessarily equate the two subject. Like I showed earlier, Hosea uses "God" and "angel" in parallel. That doesn't mean the two are to be equated.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
The following passages show the communication within the Godhead.
Gen 1:26 Then God said, ''Let US make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...
Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, ''Behold, the man has become like one of Us...
Gen 11:7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Isa 6:8 Then I heard the voice of the LORD, saying, ''Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?'' Then I said, ''Here am I. Send Me!''
In the preceding 4 passages, God is not using the royal 'WE'. Nor is He addressing the angels. The angels had no part in the creative act.
Agreed. He's speaking to the divine council. See Ps 82:1 for more on the divine council in Psalm 82, see my own discussion here. For more scholarship on the divine council see the following:
Cooke, "The Sons of (the) God(s)," Zeitschrift fur die alttestamentliche Wissenschaft 35.1 (1964): 25; Morgenstern, "The Mythological Background of Psalm 82," Hebrew Union College Annual 14 (1939): 30; Rosenberg, "Yahweh Becomes King," Journal of Biblical Literature 85.3 (1966): 306; Robinson, "The Council of Yahweh," Journal of Theological Studies 45 (1944): 155; Day, Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan (Sheffield: Sheffield University Press, 2000), 1-3; Parker, "The Beginning of the Reign of God - Psalm 82 as Myth and Liturgy," Revue Biblique 102.4 (1995): 532-59; Tsevat, God and the Gods in Assembly: An Interpretation of Psalm 82," Hebrew Union College Annual 40/41 (1969-1970): 126; Heiser, "Deuteronomy 32:8 and the Sons of God," Bibliotheca Sacra 158 (2001): 10-13; Kee, "The Heavenly Council and its Type=scene," Journal for the Study of the Old TEstament 31 (2007): 259-73; Joosten, "A Note on the Text of Deuteronomy xxxii 8," Vetus Testamentum 57 (2007): 548-55; and Eissfeldt, "El and Yahweh," Journal of Semitic Studies 1.1 (1956): 29-30.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Isa 48:16 ''Come near to Me, and listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the LORD GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.''
In Isa. 48:16, it is Jesus Christ Himself who is speaking. The three Persons of the Godhead are mentioned in this passage.
The following passages show all three Persons of the Godhead within the passage.
1 Peter 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure.
Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 3:16 And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him, 17) and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, ''This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.''
The passages which have been shown here are only some of the many passages which demonstrate that God is a triune being, and that Jesus Christ is God.
The Scriptures declare it. Will you deny it simply because you don't understand it?
I understand what the scriptures are saying very well, but it says nothing of a triune God.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
I usually provide some resources with my posts and here are two for those who are interested.
In this post I was focusing on the tri-unity of God. I didn't make any reference to the humanity of Christ. Since His incarnation some 2000 years ago, Jesus Christ has been and will forevermore be the unique Person of the universe. He is the God-man. Eternal and infinite God and true humanity in one Person forever.
Here are some of my own resources on the question of God's plurality:
Well, the people who came up with the idea said it was a mystery that was beyond human comprehension. If you can explain the Hypostatic Union in simple terms, though, give it a shot.
Hypostatic union is a theological term which refers to the fact that within the Person of Jesus Christ are two natures. His divine nature or deity, and his human nature. Jesus Christ is the unique Person of the universe. Within the Person of Jesus Christ there is no mixing of the two natures. His deity is always separate and distinct from His human nature. Jesus Christ is the unique Person of the universe.
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The Bible says absolutely nothing whatsoever about any triune nature. The Trinity is a 4th century CE innovation that is only said to have been developed from principles found scattered in the Bible, but not synthesized in any formal way. Even the staunchest of Trinitarians recognizes this.
The entire Bible reveals the triune nature of Christ. Many of the Scriptures have been given.
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Because it doesn't make any sense. It's just something that is asserted to be true in spite of the fact that it doesn't make any sense.
Again, God is One in essence and three in Persons. His attributes or essence have already been listed.
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According to the Bible he is.
The humanity of Christ has a physical body. The deity of Christ and of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit is Spirit. That which is Spirit is not physical. Distinquish between the humanity of Christ and His deity.
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But the very next chapter of John says that every person who is born of the spirit is also spirit. The predicate is identical. There's no difference between God's spiritual nature and the spiritual nature of one born of the spirit (according to the Gospel of John).
Man was created as a trichotomous being, with body, soul, and spirit. When Adam fell, he died spiritually. He lost his human spirit. When he believed God's promise of a future Messiah, he was born again. His human spirit was restored. Thereafter, every member of the human race is born as a dichotomous being, having only body and soul at the point of birth. When any member of the human race believes in Christ for salvation, he is born again. He receives a human spirit. He becomes a trichotomous being. It is the human spirit to which God imputes His perfect righteousness and eternal life. This is regeneraton.
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But you've dividing the substance, which is a heresy according to Trinitarianism.
All analogies fall short. They have their limitations. They serve only to help in understanding God's triune nature. Again, The three different Persons of the Godhead all have the exact same attributes or essence. God is three in Persons and one in essence.
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But several of these characteristics aren't in the Bible. Omnipresence and immutability, for instance, are derived from a middle- and neo-Platonic ontology.
Immutability refers to the fact that God is Unalterable. He is not capable of nor susceptible to change; therefore, He is absolute stability. His Sovereign decisions, His omniscience and His holiness, as well as His other characterisrics, are eternally the same. Therefore, His Word and His works are immutable. His faithfulness stems from His immutability. That does preclude the fact that Jesus was able to be manifested as a member of the human race. His deity remains separate and distinct from His humanity.
1) Immutability: a.) Of the Father: James 1:17 Every good thing bestowed and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow.
b.) Of the Son: Heb. 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, yes and forever.
c.) Of the Holy Spirit: John 14:16 The Holy Spirit is faithful to indwell. ''And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another helper, that He may be with you forever.
God's Omnipresence:
God is everywhere and also personally present. He is not limited by time or space and is both immanent and transcendent. That simply means that God is everywhere at the same time.
a.)Of the Father: Jer. 23:23,24 The Father fills heaven and earth. ''Am I a God who is near,'' declares the LORD, ''And not a God far off? 24) ''Can a man hide himself in hiding places, so I do not see him?'' declares the LORD. ''Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?'' declares the LORD.
b.) Of the Son: The Son promises to be with the believer always. Matt 28:20 ...and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.'' At the same time, He is in the Father and in the believer. John 14:20. ''In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
c.) Of the Holy Spirit: You cannot escape the presence of the Holy Spirit. Psalms 139:7 Where can I go from Thy Spirit? Or where can I flee from Thy presence? 8) If I ascend to heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, Thou art there.
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Also not biblical. The doctrine of homoousios was an innovation of the Council of Nicea. That's why several bishops didn't want to sign on, and some even tried to change the text when they went up to sign to read homoiousios, or "of like substance."
As I've just shown from the Scriptures regarding two of the characteristics of His essence, all three Persons of the Godhead have the exact same essence. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit each possess in equal amounts, the exact same Sovereignty, Righteousness, Justice, Love, Eternal Life, Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Immutabiltiy, and Veracity.
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Except one is also a human being. That's not quite the exact same essence or characteristics.
As already explained, the humanity of Christ is separate and distinct from His deity. Within the person of Jesus Christ are two different natures. His divine nature which is His deity, and His human nature. The characteristics of His two natures never mix. They remain separate and distinct one from the other. Jesus Christ is not half-god and half-man. He is the God-man. The unique Person of the universe.
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The distinction between a being and a person in the ontological sense is another Trinitarian innovation. This was vernacular developed to explain the doctrine as they decided it had to be understood.
As I said. The Scriptures themselves clearly show the triune nature of God.
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Not a very good transliteration. I would suggest the following: shema yisrael yhwh eloheinu yhwh ehad.
I simply took it from the Scripture4all website. It is sufficient.
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Elohim in the Hebrew Bible is a concretized abstract plural. Originally, the plural אלהים was an abstraction and meant "deity," or "divinity." Thus the female deities of Phoenicia could be referenced with the masculine plural אלהים. The abstraction is equally applicable to all divinity, whether male or female. In the second millennium BCE the plural began to be used in reference to singular subjects all over the ancient Near East. In the Amarna letters, for example, the plural ilanu is used numerous times in reference to the pharaoh. This singular usage in reference to proper deities is also found at Ta'anach, Ugarit, Mari, Qatna, and elsewhere. Within Israel, after the repeated use of the abstract plural the term became concretized in reference to Israel's deity. It still maintained, however, its generic abstract, plural, and adjectival senses. The best way to translate the word when it is used singularly is "divinity," or "deity."
The myths and mythology of man have nothing to do with the Biblical use of the term. God is three Persons with one essence.
No, אחד does not mean a unified one. The fundamental meaning is “one.†It is most commonly used to denote numerical singularity. Gen 1:9: “one place.†Exod 23:29: “in the first year.†Lev 4:27: “one soul.†Josh 23:10: “a single one of you.†Ps 14:3: “not even one.†It is related to the word יחיד, “only,†“single,†or “alone,†which is itself derived from the verbal root יחד, which can mean “be united,†“designate exclusively,†or “concentrate.†The fundamental sense is singularity, whether by unity or by separation. אחד means many things before it ever means “unity.â€
And Hosea states that an angel is God (Hos 12:4-5). So does Manoah (Judg 13:22). Paul states that there are many gods (1 Cor 8:5). Psalm 97:7 tells the gods to worship God. Deut 10:17 says Yhwh is the God of gods (and Josh 22:22; Ps 136:2; Dan 2:47; 11:46). The word "god" does not necessarily refer to a single being. There's no reason Christ cannot be God, but not the Father.
One of Jesus Christs pre-incarnation appearances was as the angel of the Lord. Hos 12:4-5 is a reference to Jesus Christ. It was Jesus Christ who wrestled with Jacob. Those interested can simply research 'the angel of the Lord.'
I Cor 8:5 simply refers to the fact that in ancient Israel, human rulers and authorities were called gods.
Psalm 97:7 refers to idols, false gods.
Jesus Christ is not the Father. He is a separate Person of the Godhead. It is Jesus Christ who carried out the actual creation of all that has been created. As John 1 makes perfectly clear.
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This actually refers to David as a god, and to David's throne as eternal. This is why the text says "therefore, O God, your God has anointed you" (על־כן משחך אלהים אלהיך).
Psalm 45:6 is a Messianic Psalm. Both Psalms 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8-9 are a reference to Jesus Christ. Here is the entire Hebrews passage.
Hebrews 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2) in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3) And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4) having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5) For to which of the angels did He ever say, ''Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten thee?''? And again, ''I will be a Father to Him, And He shall be a Son to Me?'' 6) And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, ''And let all the angels of GOd worship Him.''7) And of the angels He says, ''Who makes His angels winds, And His ministers a flame of fire.''8) But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. ''Thou shast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed thee.
Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the anointed one.
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Hebrews 1 also manifests a late understanding of Deut 32:43. Originally, that texts read just like Psalm 97:7: השתחוו לו כל אלהים, "worship him, all you gods" (see 4QDeutq from the Dead Sea Scrolls). The Septuagint changed it to "let all the angels of God worship him, strengthen him, all you sons of God." The MT took this section entirely out, but Heb 1:6 quotes the first portion of the Septuagint reading. Lots of confusion, textual corruption, and non-standard texts found just there in Hebrews 1.
Read the entire passage of Hebrews 1:1-14. It is referring to angels. For instance, verse 13, which says, But to which of the angels has He ever said, ''Sit at My right hand, Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet.
Regarding the Septuagint refer to this resource.
The Septuagint (http://www.trinitarianbiblesociety.org/site/articles/lxx.asp - broken link)
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It says he is divine, but it does not equate him with God the Father.
It (John 1:1) says, ''In the beginning was the Word (Jesus Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2) He was in the beginning with God. 3) All things came into being by Him (Jesus Christ), and apart from Him nothing came into being.
Jesus Christ is God. Plainly stated. Not God the Father, but God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity.
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The fact that the Greek uses a gender specific personal pronoun doesn't in any way indicate the subject is a person. All nouns have gender and can have personal pronouns in Greek.
Yes, it does.
The Holy Spirit is identified as a separate Person from the Father and the Son.
2 Cor. 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
In Acts 5:3 Peter tells Ananias that he lied to the Holy Spirit. You don't lie to an attribute or a force. You lie to a Person. Peter identifies the Holy Spirit as God. Acts 5:3,4.
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Not only does the word "god" not necessarily refer to the Father, but this kind of parallelism doesn't necessarily equate the two subject. Like I showed earlier, Hosea uses "God" and "angel" in parallel. That doesn't mean the two are to be equated.
[/quote]
As I said earlier, in ancient Israel men in authority, and idols were called gods. But not God.
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Agreed. He's speaking to the divine council. See Ps 82:1 for more on the divine council in Psalm 82, see my own discussion here. For more scholarship on the divine council see the following:
Cooke, "The Sons of (the) God(s)," Zeitschrift fur die alttestamentliche Wissenschaft 35.1 (1964): 25; Morgenstern, "The Mythological Background of Psalm 82," Hebrew Union College Annual 14 (1939): 30; Rosenberg, "Yahweh Becomes King," Journal of Biblical Literature 85.3 (1966): 306; Robinson, "The Council of Yahweh," Journal of Theological Studies 45 (1944): 155; Day, Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan (Sheffield: Sheffield University Press, 2000), 1-3; Parker, "The Beginning of the Reign of God - Psalm 82 as Myth and Liturgy," Revue Biblique 102.4 (1995): 532-59; Tsevat, God and the Gods in Assembly: An Interpretation of Psalm 82," Hebrew Union College Annual 40/41 (1969-1970): 126; Heiser, "Deuteronomy 32:8 and the Sons of God," Bibliotheca Sacra 158 (2001): 10-13; Kee, "The Heavenly Council and its Type=scene," Journal for the Study of the Old TEstament 31 (2007): 259-73; Joosten, "A Note on the Text of Deuteronomy xxxii 8," Vetus Testamentum 57 (2007): 548-55; and Eissfeldt, "El and Yahweh," Journal of Semitic Studies 1.1 (1956): 29-30.
I understand what the scriptures are saying very well, but it says nothing of a triune God.
The entirety of the Scriptures speak of the triune nature of God.
Open your eyes you nay sayers. Open yours eyes and your understanding. God is one in essence and three in Persons.
With all respects sir, it takes more than a full body of research work to understand the mystery of the Godhead. And that goes for everyone. The whole world, nobody knows God. Few worship him in Spirit and in truth and if he has not taught you, your earthly wisdom cannot understand his nature.
Let me take you back to Genesis when he created man. Who were the "us" in "Let us make man in our own image"? In the bible it is clear that there is God the Son, God the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is equally the Father, so also the son is a form of the Father. Remember when he was asked by Philip "shew us the Father.." and his answer shows that he was one with his Father. That validates the equation: 1+1+1=1. For better understanding Read Mathew 17:5. Jesus was a form of God having been born of the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God is his Father, so he is a form of his Father.
The Godhead can be likened to the human being. As a human you consist of water, blood and spirit. We can see water and blood, but we cannot see the spirit. The spirit is the part of you that resembles God, who is in all of us. With the Godhead you have Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The three are one in the spirit, but can separately manifest on earth and in heaven. The Son who is also God incarnated as Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. The Holy Spirit had also manifested as a dove in Jesus’ baptism. The Spirit is the power who can manifest as the Son or the Father and the Spirit is God.
The Spirit who caused the Son to manifest have now also caused the Father to manifest. The Spirit does everything. The gift of the spirit (Holy Ghost power) is the power behind all believers.
When the Spirit of God was moving about in the water , who was in existence? There exist a fussion or unity of the Father and Son in the Holy Spirit, so to that extent, they are one but again they are functionally separate. The Father is greater than the Son, but they are one.
Back to our human existence. To understand the Godhead, try and understand a human being first.
Your behaviour, your nature is actually decided from your spirit. When humans die, the spirit leaves the body, unnoticed by anyone. That is why it is said that no one can see God since no one can see the Spirit. But your action as a human is done by your body. An observer would hold your physical being responsible, but in actual fact your Spirit decides your action. As a human, your flesh and your Spirit are seen as one but in reality function differently. For instance, when you are about to hate another human, your Spirit may be against it but because you refuse to listen to your Spirit, your flesh goes ahead and activate hatred towards a fellow man. Your Spirit has functioned one way, your head and body has functioned another way. You may slap the man for instance, and if we analyse it carefully three parts of your existence were involved:
a) You Spirit
b) Your brain
c) Your hand
These 3 parts are all you! The difference between man and the Godhead is that the Godhead can materialize and dematerialize his own attributes at will, but we cannot.
God is a Spirit John 4:24. That spirit of God is called the Holy Spirit who is God who is the Father and who also has a begotten Son. In summary, the ff equation applies
With all respects sir, it takes more than a full body of research work to understand the mystery of the Godhead. And that goes for everyone. The whole world, nobody knows God. Few worship him in Spirit and in truth and if he has not taught you, your earthly wisdom cannot understand his nature.
Let me take you back to Genesis when he created man. Who were the "us" in "Let us make man in our own image"? In the bible it is clear that there is God the Son, God the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is equally the Father, so also the son is a form of the Father. Remember when he was asked by Philip "shew us the Father.." and his answer shows that he was one with his Father. That validates the equation: 1+1+1=1. For better understanding Read Mathew 17:5. Jesus was a form of God having been born of the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God is his Father, so he is a form of his Father.
The Godhead can be likened to the human being. As a human you consist of water, blood and spirit. We can see water and blood, but we cannot see the spirit. The spirit is the part of you that resembles God, who is in all of us. With the Godhead you have Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The three are one in the spirit, but can separately manifest on earth and in heaven. The Son who is also God incarnated as Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. The Holy Spirit had also manifested as a dove in Jesus’ baptism. The Spirit is the power who can manifest as the Son or the Father and the Spirit is God.
The Spirit who caused the Son to manifest have now also caused the Father to manifest. The Spirit does everything. The gift of the spirit (Holy Ghost power) is the power behind all believers.
When the Spirit of God was moving about in the water , who was in existence? There exist a fussion or unity of the Father and Son in the Holy Spirit, so to that extent, they are one but again they are functionally separate. The Father is greater than the Son, but they are one.
Back to our human existence. To understand the Godhead, try and understand a human being first.
Your behaviour, your nature is actually decided from your spirit. When humans die, the spirit leaves the body, unnoticed by anyone. That is why it is said that no one can see God since no one can see the Spirit. But your action as a human is done by your body. An observer would hold your physical being responsible, but in actual fact your Spirit decides your action. As a human, your flesh and your Spirit are seen as one but in reality function differently. For instance, when you are about to hate another human, your Spirit may be against it but because you refuse to listen to your Spirit, your flesh goes ahead and activate hatred towards a fellow man. Your Spirit has functioned one way, your head and body has functioned another way. You may slap the man for instance, and if we analyse it carefully three parts of your existence were involved:
a) You Spirit
b) Your brain
c) Your hand
These 3 parts are all you! The difference between man and the Godhead is that the Godhead can materialize and dematerialize his own attributes at will, but we cannot.
God is a Spirit John 4:24. That spirit of God is called the Holy Spirit who is God who is the Father and who also has a begotten Son. In summary, the ff equation applies
Father = Holy Spirit=God
Son = God
but,
Son is a form of the Father!
similarly using our human example
You = your Spirit = your personality
your brain= a part of you (water & blood)
your hand = a part of you (water & blood)
Let me stop so far!
The Scriptures reveal that God is a triune being. He is three Persons who all have the same essence. God in three Persons. And yet, One God.
Good analysis, Marlbron - I contend that God divided Himself for all intents and purposes, that is all we can fathom at this time. To say that the Son or the Spirit is different from the Father in nature, purpose, or intent is totally false. The Father gave us the Son, the Spirit points us to the Son, and the Son provides a way back to the Father. It's imperative that we see them working and moving in agreement and harmony.
Good analysis, Marlbron - I contend that God divided Himself for all intents and purposes, that is all we can fathom at this time. To say that the Son or the Spirit is different from the Father in nature, purpose, or intent is totally false. The Father gave us the Son, the Spirit points us to the Son, and the Son provides a way back to the Father. It's imperative that we see them working and moving in agreement and harmony.
Beautifully perfect.
As I made clear, the three Person's of the Godhead all have the same nature. The same essence. They all have the same purpose. But they have different roles with regard to the plan of salvation.
God never divided Himself. He has always existed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
As I made clear, the three Person's of the Godhead all have the same nature. The same essence. They all have the same purpose. But they have different roles with regard to the plan of salvation.
God never divided Himself. He has always existed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
What is wrong with this picture?
God created the heavens and earth... God sent his spirit out among men. God's spirit rested on several people during the old and new testaments. God's spirit rested on one particular man who was both son of God and son of man. The God-man sacrificed himself covered in sin. The God part of him escapes unscathed but the human part suffers yet somehow having left the human part because the God part can't be around sin..the God part still suffers with the Human part. Then both of them are reunited upon his death. And to top it all off it was God (the father) having help from God (the HS) who sacrificed himself (Christ) to appease a human debt to God (the father? or collectively God?).
Now if any of that is doctrinally wrong let me know.. but the fact is to a rational mind... it doesn't make any sense in the bigger scheme of things.
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