Let's Talk About Predestination (crucifixion, church, scriptures, Jesus)
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11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
God's double decree of Predestination, that from all eternity, not based upon anything of His creatures, neither good nor evil, God did detemine that some of His creatures should have everlasting life, and that some should have everlasting damnation on account of their sins.
Prov 16:4
4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
God made the wicked for the day of evil, that is for their day of destruction to be meted out to each one of them in the day of His wrath and Last Judgment.
Versus Freewill. (Something other than Universalism-pleeze)
Romans 8:29. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (NKJV)
IMO this scripture links freewill and predestination. God knew in advance (foreknew) who would choose Christ. We live our lives and make freewill choices. Some choose Jesus, some say no thanks.
Discuss.
Why put in place limitations to the outcome of a discussion? If universalism (regaurdless of whether you fully understand the term) is the scriptural conclusion are you willing to accept that?
Why put in place limitations to the outcome of a discussion? If universalism (regaurdless of whether you fully understand the term) is the scriptural conclusion are you willing to accept that?
Versus Freewill. (Something other than Universalism-pleeze)
Romans 8:29. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (NKJV)
IMO this scripture links freewill and predestination. God knew in advance (foreknew) who would choose Christ. We live our lives and make freewill choices. Some choose Jesus, some say no thanks.
Discuss.
The "might" of verse 29 is not the "might" of doubt but the "might" of certaintiy since it is in the subjunctive mood.
I have a pen in my hand. I loose my grip on the pen that it might be falling. The falling of the pen is contingent upon my loosing my grip on it.
Christ being firstborn among many brethren is contingent upon those already predestined. He will be firstborn among many brethren because those many brethren were predestined. It has nothing to do with the mythological free-will.
Phazelwood wanted to turn this thread into, yet another, UR vs orthodox theology postfest.
I find it interesting that instead of answering questions you make it sound like what I posted was wrong.
So really, why do you want the answers to your OP limited? If the biblical answer is something other than what you believe now, are you willing to accept that? Isn't that what seeking truth is about?
Is it wrong that I ask a question?
It makes a lot of sense though, the sect of Christianity that I grew up in made critical thinking something from the devil. A place where I was spiritually dead. Even though critical thinking is one factor in seeking truth.
I find it interesting that instead of answering questions you make it sound like what I posted was wrong.
So really, why do you want the answers to your OP limited? If the biblical answer is something other than what you believe now, are you willing to accept that? Isn't that what seeking truth is about?
Is it wrong that I ask a question?
Umm if you can discuss Predestination vs Freewill then fine. That's what the point of this thread was a year ago. I know your itchin' to interject UR theology. Hey I don't own this thread so do what you will.
As for me, I lean towards Freewill, but wonder sometimes if some people are predestined.
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