in defense of the suburbs (Cincinnati, Avon: apartment complex, crime, home)

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by shyspider

I'm reading very valid points on both sides of the debate.

I have a question, though:

What exactly ARE the suburbs? I mean, at what point outside the city core do you cross over into them? Is Price Hill considered a suburb, or do the suburbs start at Covedale?

How about Clifton? I mean, parts of Clifton look just like Glendale. Indeed it even reminds me of parts of Cleves Warsaw west of Covedale Avenue, which no one would consider to be anything else but suburbs. Yet Clifton is close to UC, which looks positively urban. So where's the line?

To me, any area not officially recognized as being within the boundaries of the City of Cincinnati is a suburb. So you can have close in suburbs and far out suburbs. Some suburbs, like Norwood, are completely surrounded by the city of Cincinnati, but they are still a suburb.

[shyspider]

I suppose I had considered that as a definition, too. But it becomes a bit more blurred when you look at cities such as Indianapolis, which encompasses nearly all of Marion County, Indiana. Or places such as Phoenix, which is so huge that there are places within the city limits which are comparable to what we refer to as West Chester and Mason. Not to mention places such as Los Angeles, which has multiple urbanized city centers separated by what we call suburban areas.

[JR_C]

IMO, in the context of this thread, "suburb" refers to the physical environment. Are houses close together with small front yards, maybe even attached with no front yard? Are there amenities, like restaurants, mass transit, and a grocery store, within walking distance? To me, an area is "urban" if the answer to both of these questions is "yes." Next, my definition of rural (I haven't given "rural" much though, so this might be vague) is when you are far enough from your neighbors so you can't see or hear them. Everything in between is "suburban."

I don't know much about Cincinnati and its surrounding communities, but I do know that Cleveland has suburbs that I would consider urban. And, conversely, I know that Youngstown has many neighborhoods within the city limits that I would consider "suburban."

[skippercollector]

My first apartment was in an older apartment building, one from 1928. Yes, the thicker walls made it toasty in the winter and I hardly ever needed to use the heater, but....
1. There were only one or two electrical outlets per room. I had to run extension cords or use power strips. I couldn't even get a computer until I moved into an apartment that was a newer building, because there wasn't any place to plug it in in the old place!
2. The bathtub drained very slowly after decades of gunk buildup in the pipes.
3. Way too little closet space. I had to store my opposite season's clothing at my mom's house!
4. But the worst part could have killed me, literally. The old gas oven was temperamental and the gas exploded on me once, setting my hair on fire. I wasn't seriously hurt, and the landlord replaced the oven the next day, but I still have a bit of scarring on my scalp.

[JR_C]

Originally Posted by skippercollector

My first apartment was in an older apartment building, one from 1928. Yes, the thicker walls made it toasty in the winter and I hardly ever needed to use the heater, but....
1. There were only one or two electrical outlets per room. I had to run extension cords or use power strips. I couldn't even get a computer until I moved into an apartment that was a newer building, because there wasn't any place to plug it in in the old place!
2. The bathtub drained very slowly after decades of gunk buildup in the pipes.
3. Way too little closet space. I had to store my opposite season's clothing at my mom's house!
4. But the worst part could have killed me, literally. The old gas oven was temperamental and the gas exploded on me once, setting my hair on fire. I wasn't seriously hurt, and the landlord replaced the oven the next day, but I still have a bit of scarring on my scalp.

Sounds like it could have been a neat apartment if some updating had been done.

Here are my responses to the issues you brought up.

1. I suspect that what we consider modern electrical wiring will be out of date in 80 years, too. Today, 200 amp service is considered minimum for a new house. (older houses often only had 60 amp service, and 100 amp service was normal only 20-30 years ago) I wonder if we'll want 500 amp service in 80 years?

2. Yuck! Some of this might be from lack of maintenance, but if the pipes were cast iron, it might have been time to switch to PVC. (I wonder how well PVC will hold up after 80 years?)

3. This is a genuine "problem" with older houses. But, have you watched any of the house hunting shows on HGTV lately? In modern houses, if your closet isn't large enough to be another bedroom, it's too small. So, by modern standards, houses built up through the 1980's have small closets, too.

4. I'm glad you are OK! My oven is only 15-20 years old and is problematic too. I have to wait until I hear the gas kick on, and then I yank open the bottom drawer to make the gas ignite. If I don't do this, the gas builds up and I get a large BOOM that shakes the whole house. (this happened on the few early occasions that I've forgotten. I don't forget often, anymore) I'll probably get a new stove eventually.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by JR_C

I think the 50% who live in suburbs fall on a spectrum from: "would rather live in the country" to "would rather live in the city." For some, the suburbs are a compromise between city and country, and many of them feel they are the worst of both worlds.

I agree. I'm one of those who think suburbs are the worst of both worlds. I've lived in suburban areas much of my life simply because there weren't any viable urban areas to live in. It's one thing when you live somewhere because it's a choice. It's quite another when you're effectively forced into it.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

To me, any area not officially recognized as being within the boundaries of the City of Cincinnati is a suburb. So you can have close in suburbs and far out suburbs. Some suburbs, like Norwood, are completely surrounded by the city of Cincinnati, but they are still a suburb.

I would define suburbs by housing density. Once you get below a certain housing density, you're a suburb, whether you're inside a central city or not.

Most of America's large cities are still suburban in nature. San Diego, Phoenix, Dallas, Houston, Dallas etc are all essentially suburban in nature.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by skippercollector

My first apartment was in an older apartment building, one from 1928. Yes, the thicker walls made it toasty in the winter and I hardly ever needed to use the heater, but....
1. There were only one or two electrical outlets per room. I had to run extension cords or use power strips. I couldn't even get a computer until I moved into an apartment that was a newer building, because there wasn't any place to plug it in in the old place!
2. The bathtub drained very slowly after decades of gunk buildup in the pipes.
3. Way too little closet space. I had to store my opposite season's clothing at my mom's house!
4. But the worst part could have killed me, literally. The old gas oven was temperamental and the gas exploded on me once, setting my hair on fire. I wasn't seriously hurt, and the landlord replaced the oven the next day, but I still have a bit of scarring on my scalp.

I live in a 1920s building, too. I totally relate to the lack of electircal outlets!!! That's my biggest complaint about my building. I also relate to the lack of closet space, although it isn't as bad as I feared it would be when I first moved in. I don't need to store anything anywhere else. If anything, It's forced me to get rid of stuff I don't need and don't use.

I have a stand up shower, so no bathtub...although my plumbing is fine.

My gas oven/stove is great. It's old, but I doubt it's the original.

The thick walls are nice. Between the thick walls and being on the warmer 2nd floor, I don't have to turn on the heat much in winter. (Of course, living in a mild winter climate also helps ).

[kjbrill]

So on that score, where is the population density of Cincinnati, and where is the downtown population? From what I can see it is mostly office buildings, stores or businesses of one kind or another, sports stadiums, parking garages, and associated things. So just where is the residential population of Cincinnati - along the outer fringes of the boundaries? And don't tell me a few condo units in OTR are going to add up to the claimed residential population of the city.

[Sarah Perry]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

So on that score, where is the population density of Cincinnati, and where is the downtown population? From what I can see it is mostly office buildings, stores or businesses of one kind or another, sports stadiums, parking garages, and associated things. So just where is the residential population of Cincinnati - along the outer fringes of the boundaries? And don't tell me a few condo units in OTR are going to add up to the claimed residential population of the city.

Personally I find the terminology of inner-ring suburbs, outer-ring suburbs and the occasionally used "exurbs" rather useful. Once you get out of that lightly-populated commercial core you'e talking about, I'd call most of the residential neighborhoods within the geographic limits of the City of Cincinnati inner-ring suburbs.