in defense of the suburbs (Cincinnati, Green: section 8, foreclosures, rental)

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by Sarah Perry

Personally I find the terminology of inner-ring suburbs, outer-ring suburbs and the occasionally used "exurbs" rather useful. Once you get out of that lightly-populated commercial core you'e talking about, I'd call most of the residential neighborhoods within the geographic limits of the City of Cincinnati inner-ring suburbs.

And I completely agree with you. My definition of inner-ring is neighborhoods within the city boundaries itself and which are tied governmentally to the city, meaning they do not have autonomy in terms of budget, expenditures, etc.

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

So on that score, where is the population density of Cincinnati, and where is the downtown population? From what I can see it is mostly office buildings, stores or businesses of one kind or another, sports stadiums, parking garages, and associated things. So just where is the residential population of Cincinnati - along the outer fringes of the boundaries? And don't tell me a few condo units in OTR are going to add up to the claimed residential population of the city.

Cincinnati's central business district has about 3000 people compared to about 7500 in OTR and about 20,000 in Hyde Park/Mt.Lookout.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

So on that score, where is the population density of Cincinnati, and where is the downtown population? From what I can see it is mostly office buildings, stores or businesses of one kind or another, sports stadiums, parking garages, and associated things. So just where is the residential population of Cincinnati - along the outer fringes of the boundaries? And don't tell me a few condo units in OTR are going to add up to the claimed residential population of the city.

Cincinnati - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Population density of Cincinnati is about 4200 per square mile. There may be urban pockets, but it's basically a suburban city. I'd say you need a population density of at least 8,000 per square mile before you're getting to urban.

Los Angeles has a pop. density of around 8000 per squre mile and it is still pretty car centric, although somewhat less than what a lot of people think. I hear its mass transit has improved in recent decades.

US Cities with good mass transit pretty much all have population densities of 10,000 per square mile or more. However, as I said in a previous post, Innsbruck, Austria (2898 per square mile) is not all that dense, yet it still has large areas of town that are walkable with good transit. Good planning can give you the best of both worlds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innsbruck

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by shyspider

For one thing, I can't stand the higher noise levels found in an urban environment.

This is a stereotye of downtown areas that isn't always true. My former apartment was in a more suburban neighborhood and was actually noisier than my current downtown apartment building because:

1. I don't hear my neighbors coming and going with their car stereos blasting as I did in my suburban complex.

2. My old building is of better construction quality than my 1970s era suburban apartment complex, so I don't hear my neighbors (and those annoyingly noisy motors from bathroom vent fans) through the walls.

3. There is less green space, but that also means no leafblowers. lawnmowers blasting, etc.

4. No barking dogs like you often get in suburan areas with a lot of single family homes with yards.

I'm not saying suburban areas aren't quieter on average, since most probably are...but there are more exceptions to that general rule than you might think.

Several of my friends and aquaintances who've come over have noted how quiet it is where I live.

I do have a concrete sidewalk outside my building....but my block is lined with semi-mature and mature shade trees. There's a University campus a block away full of grass and mature trees.

It's very possible to have urban areas that are green. I saw it in Munich, Germany. Lots of nice, large, well kept parks and tree lined streets...but still a pretty urban city. Best of both worlds, in my opinion.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

So on that score, where is the population density of Cincinnati, and where is the downtown population? From what I can see it is mostly office buildings, stores or businesses of one kind or another, sports stadiums, parking garages, and associated things.

You can thank poor land use planning for this situation where downtown has no people actually living in it. Having more housing right downtown near employers would be appealing to a lot of people (maybe not you, perhaps), and would reduce the need for ever more roads, reduce the number of trips by car, reduce pollution, and maybe even begin to slow down the increase in obesity.

[Ohiogirl81]

Originally Posted by skippercollector

4. But the worst part could have killed me, literally. The old gas oven was temperamental and the gas exploded on me once, setting my hair on fire. I wasn't seriously hurt, and the landlord replaced the oven the next day, but I still have a bit of scarring on my scalp.

Surely you know the stove malfunctioning is not a result of the age of the building.

Originally Posted by JR_C

(I wonder how well PVC will hold up after 80 years?)

Probably not as well as cast iron ...

Originally Posted by mysticaltyger

I'm not saying suburban areas aren't quieter on average, since most probably are...but there are more exceptions to that general rule than you might think.

When I first moved to Madison Place, it was so quiet it scared me. After awhile, I got so used to it that even the noise of my neighbors coming home from work annoyed me, LOL.

[shyspider]

Originally Posted by mysticaltyger

You can thank poor land use planning for this situation where downtown has no people actually living in it. Having more housing right downtown near employers would be appealing to a lot of people (maybe not you, perhaps), and would reduce the need for ever more roads, reduce the number of trips by car, reduce pollution, and maybe even begin to slow down the increase in obesity.

Boy, you urban enthusiasts are just dogged determined to get everyone to come live in your world, aren't you?

[Chemistry_Guy]

It is a trade-off, but here are some more reasons why a first-ring suburb made a lot of sense for me:

Space- I am a tinkerer and a motorcycle enthusiast. Few urban houses that we looked at had room for my workshop and garage full of bikes.

Entertaining- We have friends from all over the city/state/country. When we have company, it is nice to have an easily accessible house. I still cringe at the parking situation when we used to have parties at my wife's old prospect hill apartment.

Gardening- I like to have fresh vegetables every day, and our roughly 200 square foot garden keeps us well supplied from May until October. My wife has shown an interest in canning, so maybe we can extend our enjoyment of home grown produce through the winter.

Man's best friend- It is nice to have some space for my dog to run, off the leash, and for us to play with her. Without a nice sized yard, there isn't really anywhere where it is still legal to play frisbee or fetch.

Security- I know crime still happens in the suburbs... it is just really really rare in my neck of the woods. I grew up in Madisonville and Kennedy Heights and lived downtown and in Clifton in my 20's and I have seen crime... the difference is very easy to notice.

Re-sale- I'm in academia and I know that if I do not get tenure in 5 years I have to pick up and move. Houses in desirable suburbs don't stay on the market very long and have predictable resale value, while urban properties are generally a more risky proposition in Cincinnati, at least in the price range I was looking at.


Despite these advantages, I could definitely see myself moving closer to the city core someday, particularly if my wife and I achieve more job security and have the cash to really fix up/maintain a beautiful old house in Gas Light/North Avondale/East Walnut Hills. I don't see myself ever moving downtown, though.

[progmac]

Originally Posted by mysticaltyger

Cincinnati - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Population density of Cincinnati is about 4200 per square mile. There may be urban pockets, but it's basically a suburban city. I'd say you need a population density of at least 8,000 per square mile before you're getting to urban.

While it's great that this thread has gotten noticed by the 'global' city-data community, calling Cinti. a suburban city is a complete mischaracterization. Suburban / urban has very much to do with urban form, and Cincinnati's form is, well, very urban - Cincinnati was the first booming city off the east coast and for about 2/3 of our city's history, there was no automobile.

I wouldn't call New Orleans a suburban city even though its population density is less than Cincinnati's. There are other, far more accurate ways to describe things.

[Sarah Perry]

Not sure where that 8,000 number comes from, but a Wikipedia article offers this drastically different definition:

The U.S. Census Bureau defines an urban area as: "Core census block groups or blocks that have a population density of at least 1,000 people per square mile (386 per square kilometer) and surrounding census blocks that have an overall density of at least 500 people per square mile (193 per square kilometer)."