Cincinnati Fourth Most Likely City to Belly-up (Cleveland, Dayton: bankruptcy, cabinets)

[Wilson513]

I don't know how many of you have read about the City employees' pension fund but it is another topic that is being ignored but won't go away. Here we are and they can't find more than a couple of million dollars to cut from the budget and there is an unfunded past service liability in the defined benefit pension plan that makes this whole thing look like pocket change. The City will have to file bankruptcy to avoid these liabilities. What will happen to the bonds for the toy train when they do this?

I am a union hater for public employees unions at least and the problems that the unions have caused for the City are IMO the biggest problem. Cincinnati is not unique in this respect. All cities in financial trouble can source much of the problem to the unions' death grip on the city treasury.

All City services other than police and fire should be segmented into small parts (to encourage competition and competitive bidding) and privatized. Police and Fire unions should be eliminated and all police and fire should rely on civil service law for their protections and fairness. Just like all the rest of the non union public employees. And with civil service they still have about 100 times the protections as those of private employees.

the City, using a bunch of BS mumbo jumbo accounting estimates that the underfunded past service liability for the City employees retirement benefits is about $500,000,000 as of right now. That assumes a whole lot of things about future investment returns in the stock market etc., most of which may or may not occur. The liability is not a goofy number. There are employees who have already "earned" that past service liability and think they will be paid. Forget that most of them have been gaming a corrupt system with purchasing past service credits and double dipping and driving up their base salaries etc.

This is not going to go away.

Someday, we will be voting against the reps the unions want to keep their greedy snouts in the trough and in favor of those who will file bankruptcy so that the City can disclaim the union contracts and the pension plan obligations. All this horse**** about streetcars will seem like a frivilous joke when the real trouble starts. How's that for a happy New Year message.

[rrtechno]

Yes...It's all because of those pensions.

Give me a break. Here is an article, written in 2003, showing what the private sector was doing back then with pensions.

Firms Had a Hand In Pension Plight

As for the need for unions, we just had a local employer who locked out his workers for a week because they wouldn't cave to his demands for a new contract. During the time they were locked out, they voted down his final offer. After a week, he reopened the doors and told the workers they were to come back to work under the terms of his final offer.

Two of the terms he implemented:
Mandatory overtime with NO prior notification required. - At the end of your shift, your supervisor could walk up to you and say "You have to work another 4 hours today."
Vacation time cut to maximum 2 weeks per year.

These people work at presses operating at extremely high temperatures and pressures. The fatigue that a person would develop under these working conditions is a definite safety concern. These people have already taken cuts in pay over the last several years, they have been working 60+ hours a week, (mandatory overtime but with prior notification) for some time now. For what? To build up an inventory for the company owner, because he has had plans to shut the place down or break the union.

In our area also, we have had a number of public employees over time who lost their jobs because of incompetence. In all cases, the union tried to get the employee to improve to meet the desired standards, but did not attempt to block the dismissal as long as the proper procedures were being followed. Automatically putting ALL unions in one category (bad) and ALL private employers in another (good), whether stated or implied, is about as biased as one can get.

[Crew Chief]

Originally Posted by wilson1010

I don't know how many of you have read about the City employees' pension fund but it is another topic that is being ignored but won't go away. Here we are and they can't find more than a couple of million dollars to cut from the budget and there is an unfunded past service liability in the defined benefit pension plan that makes this whole thing look like pocket change. The City will have to file bankruptcy to avoid these liabilities. What will happen to the bonds for the toy train when they do this?

I am a union hater for public employees unions at least and the problems that the unions have caused for the City are IMO the biggest problem. Cincinnati is not unique in this respect. All cities in financial trouble can source much of the problem to the unions' death grip on the city treasury.

All City services other than police and fire should be segmented into small parts (to encourage competition and competitive bidding) and privatized. Police and Fire unions should be eliminated and all police and fire should rely on civil service law for their protections and fairness. Just like all the rest of the non union public employees. And with civil service they still have about 100 times the protections as those of private employees.

the City, using a bunch of BS mumbo jumbo accounting estimates that the underfunded past service liability for the City employees retirement benefits is about $500,000,000 as of right now. That assumes a whole lot of things about future investment returns in the stock market etc., most of which may or may not occur. The liability is not a goofy number. There are employees who have already "earned" that past service liability and think they will be paid. Forget that most of them have been gaming a corrupt system with purchasing past service credits and double dipping and driving up their base salaries etc.

This is not going to go away.

Someday, we will be voting against the reps the unions want to keep their greedy snouts in the trough and in favor of those who will file bankruptcy so that the City can disclaim the union contracts and the pension plan obligations. All this horse**** about streetcars will seem like a frivilous joke when the real trouble starts. How's that for a happy New Year message.

Yeah, I know, Wilson; you're one of those that, if you're in the private sector, should be allowed to make as much money as possible (whether ethically or not...) but everyone in the public sector should be paid starvation wages, fed gruel and flogged 3X daily for good measure.

Speaking of "gaming the system", I can't think of a group that games the system and causes the rest of us such misery than the %$#@! lawyers...

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by Crew Chief

Yeah, I know, Wilson; you're one of those that, if you're in the private sector, should be allowed to make as much money as possible (whether ethically or not...) but everyone in the public sector should be paid starvation wages, fed gruel and flogged 3X daily for good measure.

Speaking of "gaming the system", I can't think of a group that games the system and causes the rest of us such misery than the %$#@! lawyers...

Yea, I think that everyone should be allowed to make as much as they possibly can . . . on merit.


And, not by taking the public hostage by having a labor monopoly against a necessary public service.

And, your attempt at a personal insult is very foolish.

[Crew Chief]

Originally Posted by Sarah Perry

I'm no union hater. And I think if you want to point a finger at the real reason for the city's budget problems, it's Pettus-Brown Syndrome, where big sums of money are simply handed out to the incompetent and/or criminal cronies of elected and appointed officials in City Hall. What the average taxpayer sees is, I believe, only the tip of the iceberg.

But if the city has more police officers and firefighters than it can afford, then some of them should be laid off. Period. Those people WERE NEVER GUARANTEED LIFETIME EMPLOYMENT, but the union leadership certainly acts as if they were. When you have to have security threatening to remove the union presidents from a council meeting, you have a problem.

I've never believed that any public employee is guaranteed lifetime employment. I'm frequently frustrated to see that many government supervisiors don't have the fortitude or taxpayer's interest at heart when they fail to get rid of substandard employees. (Contrary to popular believe, you CAN get rid of them, it takes effort) And, yep, there's certainly enough cronyism in city government. Would I keep the police department from being revenue collectors? YES! I don't remember the stats but I do remember being surprised that the percentage of CPDs officers that were actually on the street at any one time seemed low. But then I don't think that short statistic without an in-depth explanation. I have more than a passing interest in firefighting and do believe having undermanned apparatus is a very bad thing at a working fire. But, again, I'm not a fire officer.

[Cincy-Rise]

Wilson, I don't think you're blemish free when it comes to making foolish remarks, putting down another user on here or their remarks. Am I correct on this?

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by Cincy-Rise

Wilson, I don't think you're blemish free when it comes to making foolish remarks, putting down another user on here or their remarks. Am I correct on this?

You are correct. So what?

[rrtechno]

Cincy-Rise and wilson1010 just agreed on something.

[rrtechno]

Originally Posted by wilson1010

Yea, I think that everyone should be allowed to make as much as they possibly can . . . on merit.

How good of you to appoint yourself supreme evaluator of all public employees' job performance.

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by rrtechno

How good of you to appoint yourself supreme evaluator of all public employees' job performance.

Here is the part you should have quoted for the above:

I don't know how many of you have read about the City employees' pension fund but it is another topic that is being ignored but won't go away. Here we are and they can't find more than a couple of million dollars to cut from the budget and there is an unfunded past service liability in the defined benefit pension plan that makes this whole thing look like pocket change. The City will have to file bankruptcy to avoid these liabilities. What will happen to the bonds for the toy train when they do this?

I am a union hater for public employees unions at least and the problems that the unions have caused for the City are IMO the biggest problem. Cincinnati is not unique in this respect. All cities in financial trouble can source much of the problem to the unions' death grip on the city treasury.

All City services other than police and fire should be segmented into small parts (to encourage competition and competitive bidding) and privatized. Police and Fire unions should be eliminated and all police and fire should rely on civil service law for their protections and fairness. Just like all the rest of the non union public employees. And with civil service they still have about 100 times the protections as those of private employees.

the City, using a bunch of BS mumbo jumbo accounting estimates that the underfunded past service liability for the City employees retirement benefits is about $500,000,000 as of right now. That assumes a whole lot of things about future investment returns in the stock market etc., most of which may or may not occur. The liability is not a goofy number. There are employees who have already "earned" that past service liability and think they will be paid. Forget that most of them have been gaming a corrupt system with purchasing past service credits and double dipping and driving up their base salaries etc.

This is not going to go away.

Someday, we will be voting against the reps the unions want to keep their greedy snouts in the trough and in favor of those who will file bankruptcy so that the City can disclaim the union contracts and the pension plan obligations. All this horse**** about streetcars will seem like a frivolous joke when the real trouble starts. How's that for a happy New Year message.