Lead water pipes in Cincinnati (Wilson: house, asbestos, home inspector)

[t45209]

Has anyone had any experience with replacing old lead water lines from the street to the house? Any general ideas on cost to replace an old lead line?
Is there any assistance from the city or other agencies? Can any plumber do this?

I don't generally get worked up about household environmental hazards like asbestos (if undisturbed) and lead paint...I think there's a hysteria about these things that is way overblown...but lead in water bugs me.

I've had people tell me that old lead pipes can be jacketed with mineral deposits that can reduce or even eliminate leaching of lead, but that wouldn't make me sleep any better if I thought I had lead pipes. I've heard there are ways to test lead levels, but again, I would probably just want to eliminate the problem to begin with.

[Wilson513]

I have never seen a lead supply line. Of course there are old lead sewer lines or "soil pipe" as they are called, but are you sure about the lead supply lines?

[t45209]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

I have never seen a lead supply line. Of course there are old lead sewer lines or "soil pipe" as they are called, but are you sure about the lead supply lines?

Yes, supply line. I'm told it was actually quite common prior to the 1940s. Builders liked it because it was softer and therefore less likely to crack if the ground moved. A friend of mine in the "old house" community pointed out that his home inspector spotted this in a circa 1895 house.

[Vintrest]

Originally Posted by t45209

Has anyone had any experience with replacing old lead water lines from the street to the house? Any general ideas on cost to replace an old lead line?
Is there any assistance from the city or other agencies? Can any plumber do this?

I don't generally get worked up about household environmental hazards like asbestos (if undisturbed) and lead paint...I think there's a hysteria about these things that is way overblown...but lead in water bugs me.

I've had people tell me that old lead pipes can be jacketed with mineral deposits that can reduce or even eliminate leaching of lead, but that wouldn't make me sleep any better if I thought I had lead pipes. I've heard there are ways to test lead levels, but again, I would probably just want to eliminate the problem to begin with.

When I lived in St. Joseph, MO I worked on the restoration of the c.1889 Ryan-Crowley building and it had original lead water supply lines. (since replaced) About every two feet a cast embossed tab with a star ornament and screw holes allowed the heavy pipe to be attached to the wall. It is my understanding that lead pipes do indeed get calcifications inside and if left understurbed the amount of lead released in the water is minimal. (I feel for the folks who used it when it was new!) Nonetheless, I wholeheartedly agree with you that ANY amount of lead in the water supply is unacceptable and would recommend replacement. As for homeowner assistance, contact the city Building-Planning Dept. and see if there are any allocations/grants for lead water pipe replacement. The lead hazards were recognized early on and I have yet to see any other lead water supply piping after about 1895. Hope this is helpful...

[Wilson513]

How do you know there is a lead supply line? Is it lead to the water meter inside the house?

Generally, replacement of supply lines is attempted by pushing new tube through the ground and is sometimes successful. In the absence of that, supply lines are just like sewer - around $20 per foot. Maybe a little cheaper than sewer. There is no lead pipe disposal rule I am aware of and the plumber probably sells it at Garden Street.

[t45209]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

How do you know there is a lead supply line? Is it lead to the water meter inside the house?

Generally, replacement of supply lines is attempted by pushing new tube through the ground and is sometimes successful. In the absence of that, supply lines are just like sewer - around $20 per foot. Maybe a little cheaper than sewer. There is no lead pipe disposal rule I am aware of and the plumber probably sells it at Garden Street.

I tried to post a picture of it, but I can't get it out of the pdf of the report. Yeah, it comes through the wall, sort of snakes around at unusual angles and into another piece of pipe that goes to the meter. It has a dull grey surface color and bulbous joints with no visible seams...presumably the lead solder blended perfectly with the rest of the pipe.

I kind of doubt that you could shove a new piece of pipe through a soft piece of lead that is bent like a dog's leg and whose inner surface looks like Dick Cheney's heart.

[restorationconsultant]

Unless you have small children there is little, IF ANY, reason to replace these lines and then only if your kids are drinking water directly from the tap. Urban soil is contaminated with lead and you get more exposure digging and playing around in your yard. In fact you probably get more lead in "organic tomatoes" grown in urban soil that you will ever get from a water line.

If you are going to be doing any resoaration or renovations that might disturb paint (sanding, heat gun etc). I always recomend a good face mask not the cheap masks but a real one with replaceable cartidges. It is a good idea to get a 'lead level check" when you have your annual physical.

[t45209]

Originally Posted by restorationconsultant

Unless you have small children there is little, IF ANY, reason to replace these lines and then only if your kids are drinking water directly from the tap. Urban soil is contaminated with lead and you get more exposure digging and playing around in your yard. In fact you probably get more lead in "organic tomatoes" grown in urban soil that you will ever get from a water line.

If you are going to be doing any resoaration or renovations that might disturb paint (sanding, heat gun etc). I always recomend a good face mask not the cheap masks but a real one with replaceable cartidges. It is a good idea to get a 'lead level check" when you have your annual physical.

Could be an expectant mother in the house. Lead pipes are worrisome in that instance.

[franke01]

Originally Posted by t45209

I tried to post a picture of it, but I can't get it out of the pdf of the report. Yeah, it comes through the wall, sort of snakes around at unusual angles and into another piece of pipe that goes to the meter. It has a dull grey surface color and bulbous joints with no visible seams...presumably the lead solder blended perfectly with the rest of the pipe.

I kind of doubt that you could shove a new piece of pipe through a soft piece of lead that is bent like a dog's leg and whose inner surface looks like Dick Cheney's heart.

Good description. I just saw one in a house yesterday and that's pretty much what they look like.

I've owned buildings that had them and I remember once a leak in one as it came through the wall - can't remember how the plumber fixed it but he did.

I wouldn't worry about the safety but then I don't worry about mold, asbestos or radon much either. I think there is an element of hysteria fueled by those who have figured out a way to make money off the public's fears and government overreaction to this kind of stuff.

Although I'm sure there are legitimate concerns etc. etc........

[Chemistry_Guy]

I'm an analytical chemist and trace analysis of metals such as copper, cadmium, lead, mercury, bismuth, and zinc is a primary research focus. I teach a lab where the students bring in samples from all over the city and we analyze them for contaminants using atomic absorption, GC-MS, HPLC, and anodic stripping voltammetry. After analyzing 500+ samples for heavy metals, mostly from old buildings with lead pipes and lead solder joints, I have seen a detectable amount in lead in about 20-25. Of those, three samples had a concentration over 100 parts per billion, which I think is fairly high. Still, you would have to drink 10,000 liters of this contaminated water to ingest a milligram of lead. This level of exposure is much more readily achieved by breathing dust or ingesting paint chips.

However, we also noticed that the first 'squirt' of water from the faucet contains as much as 100x more dissolved metal than after the water has been turned on for a few seconds, so letting the faucet run a bit before using the water is a relatively cheap way to get some peace of mind.

Testing for lead or any trace contaminant can be a tricky process because of the sampling complexity associated with generating representative samples. I trust the measurements and calibrations that my students make in the lab, but I cannot vouch for the statistical validity of their sampling methods, so my arbitrary series of measurements should not be interpreted as a true representative sampling of Cincinnati water.