What's With The Streetcars? (Cincinnati, Hamilton: homes, unemployed, salaries)

[Sarah Perry]

"Without a center that can bring together all the metro's size, the businesses that they depend on will not survive or stay and they won't either."

Can ANYONE make sense of that? Like I said, reasoning with a squirrel.

[wolden]

Originally Posted by Matthew Hall

I stand for people paying their own way. Cincinnati does, many suburban areas don't. The suburbs don't "provide" anything to Cincinnati, they take from Cincinnati without paying the full cost of what they receive. It's a great deal for the suburbs I admit, but it is unsustainable if the suburbs can't figure out how to pay their own way. If those subsidies dry up, the suburbs will dry up.

Once again, it is impossible to know what you are talking about. I recommend you try for a moment to put aside your generalities and deal with some specific instances.

For example, I live in a town called Terrace Park. Terrace Park receives revenue by taxing the value of the real estate in the town. This is true, as far as I know, for all the municipalities in Hamilton County. The amount Terrace Park receives is determined by the application of a defined millage to the assessed value of the property. The millage rate varies according to the Township.

As far as I know, practically the entire Terrace Park township budget is from these real estate taxes.

So what exactly are these "subsidies" you are going on and on about? Terrace Park "pays its own way".

Try to look at what you said, quoted above, and give me specific examples illustrating your argument in the case of a specific municipality outside of city limits. Can you do that?

[Sarah Perry]

I think the general notion is that "I don't use Paul Brown Stadium, so I shouldn't have to pay my portion of tax revenue that supports it." "I don't use University Hospital, so I shouldn't have to pay my portion of tax revenue that supports it." "I don't have a child in the school system, so I shouldn't have to pay my portion of tax revenue that supports it." I don't drive on the roads in Mason, so I shouldn't have to pay my portion of the tax revenue that maintains them." You cannot reason with people who have this essentially sociopathic attitude. They do not grasp that activities undertaken by government are for the common benefit in any respect. They see the world exclusively in terms of fragmented, exclusively self-interested groups. It's entirely a we-versus-them attitude toward everyone who does not share interests and priorities which exactly match with theirs.

And so far, I've yet to encounter a single one of these individuals who does not want ME to ante up tax money for the things THEY directly use and are benefited by. For example, if I suggest I will see no benefit whatsoever from the streetcar project and do not want my tax dollars to pay for something that will benefit only a limited group of people in a limited area of town, then they immediately accuse me of wanting to bring down the entire metro area's economic system.

So. You cannot reason with such people. At least, I have never yet succeeded.

[kjbrill]

Some would do well to research the Federal Highway Trust Fund (FHTF), basically the vehicle created back in 1956 to finance the Interstate Highway system. It is very interesting reading. Yes, gasoline taxes on users were to form the base, and over the years pretty well adhered to.

Interestingly, twice, in 1990 and 1993 the federal gasoline tax was increased but portions were diverted from the FHTF to deficit reduction into the General Fund of the Treasury. You might recall who was President then.

For those claiming the users of the roads have not been paying their way via the taxes, BS. For at least a part of the time it has been the other way around.

[motorman]

Originally Posted by rrtechno

Before you dig yourself any deeper into that hole you have begun with your posts about the dependency the suburbs have on the City, you might want to look at the map showing the P&G locations in the Cincinnati area. Granted, I haven't taken the time to check total number of employees in each location, but I believe there are more locations out in the Metro area (including suburbs) than in Cincinnati itself. And according to their website, "The MBC (Mason Business Center in the City of Mason) currently houses approximately 2,400 employees"


P&G Locations - pgcincinnati.com

Agreed that P&G's Cincinnati employees span the northern metro-area, but their H/Qs is still downtown...

Originally Posted by Sarah Perry

"Without a center that can bring together all the metro's size, the businesses that they depend on will not survive or stay and they won't either."

Can ANYONE make sense of that? Like I said, reasoning with a squirrel.

Ah, come on, Sarah--please don't play so dumb! Perhaps Matthew Hall's sentence-structure was awkward, but what he's been hammering away at was very clear.

[kjbrill]

Also, talk about things I don't use. Haven't been across an Ohio River bridge in over a year, and it might be longer between now and the next time. So I should just sit and complain a new bridge is not needed, since I am not using it. Without the I-75 highway making Cincinnati an important cog in the north-south commerce system, it will shrivel up. So let's see Cincinnati pay for a new bridge to replace the Brent Spence, lock stock and barrel. Sometimes these discussions become idiotic so the real problems are not addressed.

[kjbrill]

motorman... Yes, P&G's headquarters is downtown. But what do you think motivates them to spread their local employees over such a broad area? They could just as easily build a couple more high-rises downtown and require everyone to report there. I say it is because they are smart enough to realize employee content has a lot to do with how they conduct daily living, including the commute from their job to their home and the environment that home is located in. This company has not been a top-notch international force without the ability to recognize what motivates people.

[Sarah Perry]

Originally Posted by motorman

Agreed that P&G's Cincinnati employees span the northern metro-area, but their H/Qs is still downtown...



Ah, come on, Sarah--please don't play so dumb! Perhaps Matthew Hall's sentence-structure was awkward, but what he's been hammering away at was very clear.

Well, if it's that clear would you mind taking a stab at translating it? How do you "bring together the size" of something? And "will not survive or stay and they will not." Huh?

I notice you didn't hesitate at all to make an assumption that I was pretending to not understand, so I assume you wouldn't mind explaining what Mr. Hall intended, either. I'll be the first to acknowledge that your writing is more clear than his is. So please rewrite so I can get it. Thanks.

[motorman]

Originally Posted by Sarah Perry

Well, if it's that clear would you mind taking a stab at translating it? How do you "bring together the size" of something? And "will not survive or stay and they will not." Huh?

I notice you didn't hesitate at all to make an assumption that I was pretending to not understand, so I assume you wouldn't mind explaining what Mr. Hall intended, either. I'll be the first to acknowledge that your writing is more clear than his is. So please rewrite so I can get it. Thanks.

I think it best I tread lightly here, Sarah, by neither questioning your understanding nor interpreting Mr. Hall's writing. The difficulty might be expressed in that oft-used analogy of the donut--whereas suburbanites see the Cincinnati metro as a "normal donut" (hole surrounded by substance), urbanites might see the exact opposite. Many of us (myself included) wish to see no donut--we wish for the city proper to become the entire county (and maybe beyond).

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by motorman

Many of us (myself included) wish to see no donut--we wish for the city proper to become the entire county (and maybe beyond).

And they say us suburbanites are living in a fantasy world.