Buckhead vs Hoboken (City life and Access) (live, best, better)

[grapico]

Originally Posted by sk8t

How is the square mile population different from the population? There has to be that many people in a square mile for it to be x amount per square mile right?

No. I'm sorry but I can't give a 3rd grade math lesson if you can't understand it. Really??? Can you guys not grasp this data?

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by grapico

I rest my case then, you purposely misled the Atlanta density by not including the square miles and population represented. Please include the square miles or population set to get the data. You know how to do it, and that site you gave gave the people in that radius, but you purposely left them out to fit your agenda.

No, I purposely left them out because I didn't feel like doing it. If I gather the strength to do so for all of them (doubtful) then I will do so. For those who can not wait for that to happen (if it ever comes) then I have provided the location where to find that information and find both the number of people and they area those population density values came from. If it satisfies you, here is one citation I made:

Midtown between 5th and 10th streets north to south bounded by West Peachtree and Monroe west to east - 16,867 people per square mile (notice I gave the location of the area I was citing and the streets it was bounded by. Something of which people can get from a map and I do not have to "hide")

Population: Approximately 4214 as of 2009
Square miles of the Area: 0.18
Density: 16,867 people per square mile

Urban characteristics of the area:

-Served by two 2 subway stops of Atlanta's MARTA (Midtown and Arts Center Station)
-Location of the premier arts centers of the city (The High Museum of Art, Atlanta Ballet, Several theater companies)
-Location of the Olmstead Brothers designed Piedmont Park (which reduces the population density of this neighborhood greatly by it's inclusion)
-Architecture varies from Victorian Townhouses, high rise condos, townhouses , examples of which are:



(Before you say it, only three of those buildings are offices. The rest are condos.)





Good enough, or am I still "twisting facts".

Only a few places in the City of Atlanta match the Northeastern version of "urban", while most of the urban areas in the city are of an completely different breed (not without similarities). What escapes me is why people seem to think that:

1. Why people seem to think that anyone has ever tried to portray Atlanta as exactly being like a northern city in any way.
2. How by the fact the urban areas in Atlanta differ from other cities they some how aren't urban.

Originally Posted by grapico

If I wanted the square miles I just divide the numbers back, given I had to do "my own work" as you said.

Knock yourself out.

Originally Posted by grapico

So given that I found the population of your misleading data.
I come up with your 36,492.8 people per square mile figure with only 1259 people equals this data only representing a .034 square mile radius. Highly relevant area, right?

Not really sure how. That particular neighborhood is very urban and the last thing you will ever think going there is "I am in the suburbs". Overall, it's not a very nice neighborhood and not really up to the "chic" terms people think of when they say "urban".

[BPerone201]

Originally Posted by Galounger

How about you show me something Hoboken has besides density

I'm Waiting

-Hoboken has more bars per square mile than anywhere else in the nation.
-Hoboken is the "youngest" city in the nation (excluding college towns)
-It's Frank Sinatra's town they have a park and festivals in honor of him.
-Hoboken is the birthplace of American baseball
-Hoboken Terminal has lines that go into NYC, Jersey City, Newark Airport, Philly, The Shore, and everywhere else in between.
-Hobooken arguably the best views of the Manhattan Skyline
-Hoboken has it's own Taxi system
-The show "Cake Boss" (Carlo's Bakery) is in Hoboken.
-Hoboken has a park that acts like a beach (You can lay out in the sun under the NYC skyline)- This park is also rated amongst the top 10 Urban Parks in the US.
-You can stroll Wshington St- Rated amongst the top 10 "Great Streets in America 2010" (http://www.planning.org/greatplaces/...0/index.htm#NJ)
-Hoboken has a Museum that's all about the history Hoboken-- How about you go and check it out if you're really that clueless.

But yea, the reason why density is brought up so much is because all this is so accessible. Does Buckhead have one square mile that can stack up to all of this?
Just admit that density is key when determining what place is more urban- Especially if the difference is drastic.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by grapico

PS that Guttenberg data, not sure why you chose it, is almost 7x larger area than your largest density Atlanta data set...

So which is it, is your Guttenberg data irrelevant? Or is all of your Atlanta data irrelevant. Checkmate.

What?

It was an example of how population density works. In particular, how a large people per square mile comes from having a small amount of people. I used it to back up my citations.

But, whatever. Check mate. woooh

[grapico]

Getting warmer... OK, now lets take it down to a city neighborhood level that is typical in other cities. Say population over 2-3 square miles...
That .2 square miles is such a micro level as to just be a few blockxblock radius..Can we get at least an actual cohesive square mile to show off? Just one square mile, give me the best, most dense amenity filled area. If that is the case then Atlanta has very micro levels of comparable to other size metros it is in league with, surrounded by what most consider as suburban.

Originally Posted by waronxmas

What?

It was an example of how population density works. In particular, how a large people per square mile comes from having a small amount of people. I used it to back up my citations.

But, whatever. Check mate. woooh

Do you think a .03 square mile area is relevant? Yes or no. Again this is what YOU used to get your point across that Atlanta is dense, not me. Don't turn this around.

Originally Posted by waronxmas

Not hard to do when said city is only 1.2 square miles. I plus, I guess.

1.2 square miles is apparently a HUGE area by your standards though. You are posting density levels at .03 square miles that are supposedly relevant to prove your point. That is 2% of Hoboken.

Can you give us just a 1 square mile area of Atlanta to go off of in comparison.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by BPerone201

-Hoboken has more bars per square mile than anywhere else in the nation.

Really? Someone took the time to figure out the bar density?

Originally Posted by BPerone201

-Hoboken is the "youngest" city in the nation (excluding college towns)

Not hard to do when said city is only 1.2 square miles. I plus, I guess.

Originally Posted by BPerone201

-It's Frank Sinatra's town they have a park and festivals in honor of him.

Definitely a plus.

Originally Posted by BPerone201

-Hoboken is the birthplace of American baseball

Was it? From what I've read there is a bit of mystery as to where it was "invented" from Cooperstown to NYC to some dudes backyard. I did find that it was the place where the first official game of baseball was played, so that is definitely cool.

Originally Posted by BPerone201

-Hoboken Terminal has lines that go into NYC, Jersey City, Newark Airport, Philly, The Shore, and everywhere else in between.

I should hope so given it's location in between NYC and the Jersey and Upstate suburbs. But it is a plus none the less.

Originally Posted by BPerone201

-Hobooken arguably the best views of the Manhattan Skyline

Brooklynites would disagree, and to me, the best view of Manhattan is from the top floors of a condo in Manhattan.

Originally Posted by BPerone201

-Hoboken has it's own Taxi system

What city doesn't?

Originally Posted by BPerone201

-The show "Cake Boss" (Carlo's Bakery) is in Hoboken.

I leave my opinion of that show out of this discussion, but I suppose it's a plus...even though we have Alton Brown

Originally Posted by BPerone201

-Hoboken has a park that acts like a beach (You can lay out in the sun under the NYC skyline)- This park is also rated amongst the top 10 Urban Parks in the US.

Ok.

Originally Posted by BPerone201

-You can stroll Wshington St- Rated amongst the top 10 "Great Streets in America 2010" (Great Places in America: Streets)

Not saying that street isn't nice, but that reference also cites Wallace, Idaho and Eureka Springs, Arkansas as having comparable streets...

Originally Posted by BPerone201

-Hoboken has a Museum that's all about the history Hoboken

Buckhead has a Museum all about the history of Atlanta. This is a common thing.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by grapico

Getting warmer... OK, now lets take it down to a city neighborhood level that is typical in other cities. Say population over 2-3 square miles...

Ok, for the Nth time, what I posted has nothing to do with other cities. I do not care for discussing that, but if you do that is fine. My post is talking about one subject and one subject only.

Originally Posted by grapico

That .2 square miles is such a micro level as to just be a few blockxblock radius..Can we get at least an actual cohesive square mile to show off?

Just one square mile, give me the best, most dense amenity filled area. If that is the case then Atlanta has very micro levels of comparable to other size metros it is in league with, surrounded by what most consider as suburban.

Well, in refererence to the other post. That is but one neighborhood of about 7 in Midtown...all of which run concurrently to each other.

However, as some one else stated, Atlanta is not laid out in an even way and I have stated such on C-D. Atlanta is a city of neighborhoods that act in nodes. It goes from high density urban, to medium density urban, to low density urban, to sometimes suburban or industrial only to start back up again in matter of a few blocks. Compounding that, almost all of the neighborhoods were developed in different periods for different purposes making each of these neighborhoods look completely different from each other (and in the process confusing the hell out of people). As a whole though, it is urban. If you want a definitive urban/suburban percentage of the entire city, in all I would say it is 75 to 85% urban and 25 to 15% suburban both in form and where the actually residents of the city live. None of it is exactly the same.

There are various long winded explanations for this that I will not go into (it mostly centers around the very strict zoning laws the city has), but seems to be the biggest source of confusion for people from other cities who are used to cities going from high density urban, medium density urban, suburban, to rural in one even path. Atlanta isn't that kind of city, but it doesn't mean it's not urban.

Originally Posted by grapico

Do you think a .03 square mile area is relevant? Yes or no. Again this is what YOU used to get your point across that Atlanta is dense, not me. Don't turn this around.

Again, you are applying what you know and trying to apply to a city that does not fit that model. A small square mile area is relevant in Atlanta terms because even within the same district (or just the next block over) the way it looks and operates can completely different. Not allowing this reality into your thought process allows us to go in circles like this.

[grapico]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

However, as some one else stated, Atlanta is not laid out in an even way and I have stated such on C-D. Atlanta is a city of neighborhoods that act in nodes.

I agree on this...

It goes from high density urban, to medium density urban, to low density urban, to sometimes suburban or industrial only and starts back up again in matter of a few blocks.

You obviously believe that are differing levels of urbanity. If you are classifying anything in Atlanta as high density urban, to medium urban. Then, what do you consider cities with much much higher densities? If Atlanta is hitting 16K over .2 and that is about dense as it gets. What do you call areas that are 150K over .2?

[BPerone201]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

Really? Someone took the time to figure out the bar density?

Almost everyone in Jersey know's this. It is or was in the Guinness world record book as well.

Not hard to do when said city is only 1.2 square miles. I plus, I guess.

Really? find me a 1 square mile in Atlanta that has over 40K people, then see if it's "not hard to do"

Was it? From what I've read there is a bit of mystery as to where it was "invented" from Cooperstown to NYC to some dudes backyard. I did find that it was the place where the first official game of baseball was played, so that is definitely cool.

Well Hoboken didn't "invent" baseball- That was somewhere in Europe, but Europeans brought it over to Hoboken and played the first ever American Baseball game.
052210_hoboken_famous_welcometohoboken | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40375323@N06/4650295035/ - broken link)

Brooklynites would disagree, and to me, the best view of Manhattan is from the top floors of a condo in Manhattan.

From Hoboken

What city doesn't?

Not like Hoboken (other than NYC, I haven't seen a more prominent taxi system than lil ol Hoboken)

I leave my opinion of that show out of this discussion, but I suppose it's a plus...even though we have Alton Brown

Well, those cakes are phenominal none the less... Alton Brown is good

Not saying that street isn't nice, but that reference also cites Wallace, Idaho and Eureka Springs, Arkansas as having comparable streets...

I'm assuming it was rating the charm of America Streets- Not a street riddled with chain restaurants and retail.

Buckhead a Museum all about the history of Atlanta. This is a common thing.

Atlanta is a Huge city of 600K- Hoboken is a town of 42K... IDK what's common about that AT ALL. How many one square mile, or even a sprawling town of 40K have a museum of "its town"?
~

Instead of nitpicking, you could of just let my post bet- Your follow Georgian was assuming Hoboken offered nothing more than density, and was "waiting" to here what it else it offered- So I responded. But I guess you guys back each other up, no matter how useless the logic may be.

[sk8t]

Originally Posted by grapico

I agree on this...

You obviously believe that are differing levels of urbanity. If you are classifying anything in Atlanta as high density urban, to medium urban. Then, what do you consider cities with much much higher densities? If Atlanta is hitting 16K over .2 and that is about dense as it gets. What do you call areas that are 150K over .2?

So it is all or nothing? What does the dictionary say?