Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Heart Pick: Cavs in 6
Head Pick: Warriors in 7 (using the algorithm I created, at least)
However, if Clay Thompson isn't at full strength that could be the great equalizer, also depending on how well Kyrie comes back for this series. I also wonder if Tristan will be able to continue his dominance on the glass, will be crucial as we can't afforrd to give GSW shooters second chances.
Klay Thompson is good to go. His teammates have commented that his shoot around sessions are back to normal, as it has been all year, and that the injury isn't disrupting his shooting ability or anything else. He is widely expected to play in Game 1 in Golden State this Thursday.
I agree with Lets Eat Candy, Golden State should win this one (easily) in 4 or 5. No Kevin Love and an injured Kyrie Irving doesn't help, even if they were healthy, Cleveland would be a HUGE underdog in this series. Them injured? Forget it, you're not winning unless Golden State chokes this series away (no chance of that happening, they're not the Clippers).
LeBron James is having his worst postseason run in years, he's shooting 17% from the 3 point line, 43% from the field, and is basically having to carry his team on his back against the most stacked and talented team in the league who have a 67-15 record. Not to mention, he's definitely a step or two slower this year than last year and he was a step slower last year than the year before. He peaked as a basketball player two years ago and is now on the back-end of his prime years.
Yeah, good luck with that.
As for the comparison of these cities. I haven't been to Cleveland yet but do plan on seeing it when I go through the Midwest within the next 7-8 weeks along with the rest of Ohio, Pittsburgh, Indiana, Kentucky, and Tennessee.
Anyone have any recommendations for things to do? Places to see? Areas to stay? All would be appreciated.
Be prepared to accept loss by the conclusion of the series. It seems you have no chance at all now. LeBron James is falling to a 2-4 record in the NBA Finals. You cant go to the NBA Finals every year and lose more than you win and still expect people to not laugh when you compare yourself to the GOAT candidate that is 6-0 Michael Jordan or the 5-2 Kobe Bryant.
Where they are based as one thing, but clearly BART was designed to mainly serve SF, esp downtown SF, and even though major lines converge in Oakland, Oakland is more like an SF suburb (an urbanized suburb, but a suburb nonetheless) than a core city... It's not unlike Newark's relationship to NYC -- that huge rail transit network that serves Newark wouldn't exist if it didn't sit next door to the New York megalopolis.
It depends what you define as "suburb". I feel that Oakland's relationship to SF is close to St. Paul's relationship to Minneapolis than Newark's to New York's, especially when you consider size and what each do economically. Oakland has a more traditional blue collar economy than San Francisco (IE: the port), and much of the East Bay generally is more oriented to Oakland than it is to SF.
But then again, we can agree to disagree on this one. I think it's very much a stand-alone city, but I might be biased because I did live in the Bay Area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clevelander1991
Heart Pick: Cavs in 6
Head Pick: Warriors in 7 (using the algorithm I created, at least)
However, if Clay Thompson isn't at full strength that could be the great equalizer, also depending on how well Kyrie comes back for this series. I also wonder if Tristan will be able to continue his dominance on the glass, will be crucial as we can't afforrd to give GSW shooters second chances.
Klay has a concussion, and he's already attending practice. I think he would be good to go by game 1. Kyrie's ankle might be a problem for Cleveland, but I would think they would try to use Shumpert more anyways since he's a better defender than a fully healthy Kyrie.
Tristan Thompson has been a boon to the Cavs, but he isn't that much of a scoring threat. In the past 2 matchups between CLE and GSW, Love was a menace against GSW because he could score at will for a guy that big.
LeBron going off might be good for 1, possibly two wins. I actually semi-expect the Cavs to win Game 1 since he will bring more poise to the Cavs than the inexperienced Warriors. But Kerr will make his adjustments eventually.
I hope its a good series though. If there was any way for CLE to win without LeBron getting a ring, I'd cheer for them all the way.
Cleveland though I have never been. I would think it'd be close. Oakland can definitely stand on its own two feet and blow most cities in this country away with its amenities and infrastructure. Oakland is both the central city for 2.7 million people (it does have an NFL, MLB, and an NBA team after all!) and is a second tier city adjacent to San Francisco. Cleveland is the central city for 3.5 million people. Oakland's downtown is considerably shorter than Cleveland's, but potentially more vibrant with more residents and things to do. Oakland has superior transit. Cleveland has Case Western + University Circle whereas Oakland has UC Berkeley + Berkeley. Both cities have a lot of crime, but a lot of great, vibrant safe neighborhoods. Both cities are quite industrial, which is reflected in their largely blue collar, unionized populations. Oakland is definitely more diverse in terms of population - it's really difficult to be more diverse than Oakland, which is nearly evenly divided between ethnic whites, blacks, Asians, and Hispanics.
Cleveland has Cedar Point, though, so anybody saying Oakland has better theme parks is totally clueless!
Klay Thompson is good to go. His teammates have commented that his shoot around sessions are back to normal, as it has been all year, and that the injury isn't disrupting his shooting ability or anything else. He is widely expected to play in Game 1 in Golden State this Thursday.
I agree with Lets Eat Candy, Golden State should win this one (easily) in 4 or 5. No Kevin Love and an injured Kyrie Irving doesn't help, even if they were healthy, Cleveland would be a HUGE underdog in this series. Them injured? Forget it, you're not winning unless Golden State chokes this series away (no chance of that happening, they're not the Clippers).
LeBron James is having his worst postseason run in years, he's shooting 17% from the 3 point line, 43% from the field, and is basically having to carry his team on his back against the most stacked and talented team in the league who have a 67-15 record. Not to mention, he's definitely a step or two slower this year than last year and he was a step slower last year than the year before. He peaked as a basketball player two years ago and is now on the back-end of his prime years.
Yeah, good luck with that.
As for the comparison of these cities. I haven't been to Cleveland yet but do plan on seeing it when I go through the Midwest within the next 7-8 weeks along with the rest of Ohio, Pittsburgh, Indiana, Kentucky, and Tennessee.
Anyone have any recommendations for things to do? Places to see? Areas to stay? All would be appreciated.
I think a lot of people were thinking that about the Atlanta series also though. Even with Kyrie partially there, and Love out, the way the Cavs played in the ECF shows they won't be an easy out. Also, the fact that LeBron is LeBron is big, and he has experience and moxie that no one on GSW does. The spread reflects sort of where I'm feeling on this series, that the Warriors are slight favorites.
I can't speak to the Kyrie situation, but what motivation would they have to publicly come out with something like that, other than gamesmanship? I don't know how he'll actually do, but that's where I'm guessing it's coming from.
LeBron does really seem to have a way to make the guys around him better though. I've found that he plays very efficiently, but yes, he isn't as high flying as he was 3-4 years ago. Only time will tell...
How is GSW's front line? I'd tend to say that the way Tristan has played the past month, I'd take him over Draymond. Question is by how much?
Well what kind of stuff do you enjoy doing? Are you from the West Coast and have you been to the region before? In Cleveland, hit the West Side Market/Ohio City area, check out the University Circle museums especially the CMA, walk around downtown/perhaps take in an Indians game and see all the gilded age turn of the century architecture and bustling East 4th Street and West 6th a Street as well as the redeveloped Flats. Outside of town, hike/bike your way through Cuyahoga Valley National Park, followed by Winking Lizard in Peninsula (A LOT of history there). Also do a day over at Put in Bay , go kayaking, parasailing, caving, and just drive a golf kart around the island. Oh and Cedar Point if roller coasters are your thing.
Outside of the Cleveland area?
-Niagara Falls
-Toronto
-Cherry Springs State Park (if you aren't used to stargazing out west)
-Letchworth State Park
-Pittsburgh
-Mammoth Cave
-Smoky Mountains (or Alleghenies are also spectacular just south of Pittsburgh)
Just some general thoughts, though I know that's a lot of ground to cover.
Cleveland though I have never been. I would think it'd be close. Oakland can definitely stand on its own two feet and blow most cities in this country away with its amenities and infrastructure. Oakland is both the central city for 2.7 million people (it does have an NFL, MLB, and an NBA team after all!) and is a second tier city adjacent to San Francisco. Cleveland is the central city for 3.5 million people. Oakland's downtown is considerably shorter than Cleveland's, but potentially more vibrant with more residents and things to do. Oakland has superior transit. Cleveland has Case Western + University Circle whereas Oakland has UC Berkeley + Berkeley. Both cities have a lot of crime, but a lot of great, vibrant safe neighborhoods. Both cities are quite industrial, which is reflected in their largely blue collar, unionized populations. Oakland is definitely more diverse in terms of population - it's really difficult to be more diverse than Oakland, which is nearly evenly divided between ethnic whites, blacks, Asians, and Hispanics.
Cleveland has Cedar Point, though, so anybody saying Oakland has better theme parks is totally clueless!
Yeah, I didn't know if the Bay Area had a Six Flags close by. Cedar Point is an hour away, but doesn't go second to anyone when it comes to roller coasters , however it is an hour away. I know Santa Cruz has a waterfront park, but it's a hike for Oakland and doesn't compare to CP.
Good point about the comparison with UC and Case. I suppose it is actually somewhat closer then, because Cleveland also has a downtown campus which is rapidly improving in the form of CSU, and Oberlin on the west side might be a Top 10 National Liberal Arts College it has a fantastic reputation and alumni list, and on campus museum. I guess I was just sort of thinking about how much of a magnet for brains in general the Bay Area is, and with Stanford. Surprisingly though, I'm not sure that even the city of San Fran, while small, has one college inside of it that can match Case.
Cleveland's downtown has gotten a bad rap for a long time but is rapidly shedding that. I'd say the vibrancy/elegance of a street like East 4th can only be matched by a handful of cities in the US, and the educated population living down there/moving to the city is skyrocketing.
Yeah, I didn't know if the Bay Area had a Six Flags close by. Cedar Point is an hour away, but doesn't go second to anyone when it comes to roller coasters , however it is an hour away. I know Santa Cruz has a waterfront park, but it's a hike for Oakland and doesn't compare to CP.
Good point about the comparison with UC and Case. I suppose it is actually somewhat closer then, because Cleveland also has a downtown campus which is rapidly improving in the form of CSU, and Oberlin on the west side might be a Top 10 National Liberal Arts College it has a fantastic reputation and alumni list, and on campus museum. I guess I was just sort of thinking about how much of a magnet for brains in general the Bay Area is, and with Stanford. Surprisingly though, I'm not sure that even the city of San Fran, while small, has one college inside of it that can match Case.
Cleveland's downtown has gotten a bad rap for a long time but is rapidly shedding that. I'd say the vibrancy/elegance of a street like East 4th can only be matched by a handful of cities in the US, and the educated population living down there/moving to the city is skyrocketing.
The Bay Area has a Six Flags and California's Great America. Neither is that great (certainly no Cedar Point). Six Flags is probably 30 minutes from DT Oakland, while the other is probably 30-45 minutes without traffic (down by SJ). Santa Cruz boardwalk would be 1.25-1.5+ hours with traffic (and it's a boardwalk).
Oakland has a rough rough image, and rightfully so, but I doubt there is an equivalent to Lake Merritt and some of the surrounding yuppie neighborhoods in Cleveland. The Bay Area in general, no matter how rough the area, attracts a certain echelon of people that few areas in the world do. Oakland actually has a lot of similarities to Brooklyn, though people downplay that (because, well you can walk across the Brooklyn Bridge but you can't walk across the Bay Bridge). It's definitely a secondary downtown as far as commercial space goes whereas Cleveland's is a primary (and large) downtown, but Oakland is still one of the densest cities in the country, and definitely one of the most vibrant with America's incredibly low bar. Don't forget that Oakland serves as an overflow to San Francisco (and that includes for both companies and people these days). It's a solid walkable and pleasant urban experience from DT Oakland up to Berkeley, a few miles away, with an uninterrupted string of neighborhoods with roughly 12K ppsm ranging up to over 50K ppsm. I don't think Cleveland has that dynamic (in fact, Cleveland has few Census Tracts exceeding 10K ppsm).
Looking at Census Tracts, DT Cleveland has and is surrounded by a bunch of ~2k population tracts with densities mainly between 5-10K ppsm. DT Oakland has and is surrounded by 4-5K population census tracts with densities most frequently in the 20-40K ppsm range. I would guess that produces a solid differential in downtown residential/street life. DT Oakland is also served by 5 heavy rail lines bringing hundreds of thousands of commuters through a day. And there is a large Chinatown in DT Oakland, as well. It may have a horrible rap and a lack of office towers that most larger cities have (though it's not "small" in that department either), but it has many things that most American downtowns, even solidly large rustbelt towns with great bones, lack nowadays.
RE: city of SF lacking a university presence - yes, it doesn't have prominent/large general research universities within its tiny 47 sq mi. And it's easy to get overshadowed by "area" universities like Berkeley and Stanford, among others. But the City of SF has UCSF, a large #4 ranked med school in the country. It has UC Hastings, which focuses on law. It has USF, a Jesuit university with a beautiful campus. It has SF State, a typical mid-tier state school. It has a U Penn Wharton campus, which puts top tier MBA students in its financial district. And finally, it has a pretty renowned plethora of art schools (some that are tops in the country). I don't think it's got the intown university presence that Boston, NYC, or Philly have, but it's really not too shabby. Case Western is a solid 3-4 miles from DT Cleveland (that distance would put one just about in the Sunset in San Francisco...which is just that much more tightly packed in than Cleveland making these comparisons a little difficult).
I would still vote for Cleveland at this point, because quite frankly, it's hard to compare an upper mid-tier Midwest city like Cleveland, which was once one of the great cities of this country and still has the bones to prove it, to a secondary city like Oakland. Though if weather were a heavily weighted criteria, my vote could change.
That's an interesting point you mention. Cleveland has been on the upswing (as a region and city, but especially region) for the last 5 years or so, but that steady recovery still can't match Silicon Valley, which id say in some ways is a center of our country for wealth (other than Boston, there may not be a more educated region in America). You are right about the density. In Cleveland's case, it almost feels sometimes like everything between Sandusky, and Conneaut and Canton is "Greater Cleveland", and while that's great and all, you're right that it doesn't provide a high density living experience. DT Lakewood is one exception, as I believe it is the highest density city/area between NYC and Chicago, roughly about the same as DC. There are also certain pockets around UC and Downtown that feel extremely dense/urban, and the number of apartments being put up downtown is on a constant rise which should help, but there are surrounding pockets that aren't that way.
I guess the question would also be does living in a high density area influence quality of life? I wouldn't know for sure, but I guess it could be hit or miss. If people are able to rely on an effective public transit system , then possibly.
I was curious, could you post some pics of these neighborhoods/places to visit that I'd want to see in Oakland? I tried doing some research on the city because I assumed what you were saying was true, but nothing much came up for either city showing any of the downtown core streets or attractions. If I ever visit the Bay Area again soon, I really would like to spend some time on the Oakland side of town also.
Here's a few that kinda show what I meant in the Cleveland area as far as the vibrancy goes. Of course there are others, but these are a few main examples. Admittedly, the Little Italy one is taken during a weekly street festival each summer.
Great match up. I like both these cities, but rooting for Golden State.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
