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I'm surprised KC has not come up in this thread. I always wonder how big people think the metro is before they have been there. Since moving the east coast and talking to people out here, I feel like most people think it's a much smaller city than it is. KC feels about the same size as Baltimore to me, even though Baltimore is bigger (mostly because it has suburban counties that could also be in the DC MSA like Howard and Anne Arundel. But the city in general feels about the same as KC.
Kansas City CSA 2,472,602
Kansas City MSA 2,128,912
To me the cities that always surprise me with how many people live there are Raleigh, Charlotte, Virginia Beach area, El Paso, San Jose, Austin, Orlando, Grand Rapids and Salt Lake City.
Cities that seem much larger than they really are to me are New Orleans, Chicago, Memphis, Buffalo and Las Vegas.
I'm surprised KC has not come up in this thread. I always wonder how big people think the metro is before they have been there. Since moving the east coast and talking to people out here, I feel like most people think it's a much smaller city than it is. KC feels about the same size as Baltimore to me, even though Baltimore is bigger (mostly because it has suburban counties that could also be in the DC MSA like Howard and Anne Arundel. But the city in general feels about the same as KC.
Kansas City CSA 2,472,602
Kansas City MSA 2,128,912
To me the cities that always surprise me with how many people live there are Raleigh, Charlotte, Virginia Beach area, El Paso, San Jose, Austin, Orlando, Grand Rapids and Salt Lake City.
Cities that seem much larger than they really are to me are New Orleans, Chicago, Memphis, Buffalo and Las Vegas.
Ann Arundel County Borders Baltimore City with no gaps in urban area from Baltimore City all the way to Annapolis. The Majority of Howard county's population is in the northern section of the county..ie Just outside of Baltimore
Ann Arundel County Borders Baltimore City with no gaps in urban area from Baltimore City all the way to Annapolis. The Majority of Howard county's population is in the northern section of the county..ie Just outside of Baltimore
Yes, I know, but a TON of people in both counties commute to DC and DC suburbs like Montgomery County and even Northern VA. You even have more transit options from Annapolis to DC than to Baltimore. I'm just saying that those counties are partially suburbs to DC as well. If you take away parts of those counties, the population of Baltimore is actually pretty close to that of Kansas City, which might explain why they feel so similar in size.
I will say the Southside (Virginia Beach/Norfolk) feels more around Birmingham size, and the true measure of Hampton Roads is to regard it more as a CSA rather than an MSA. Because that's how it functions. The Southside is just short of 1.2 million people, MUCH closer to its actual weight class and personality...
The Peninsula (Hampton/Newport News) is around 530,000 and feels like it...
All of this is true. I think among the common misconceptions that people over here have is that people aren't going to have a handle on how the region functions. This is effectively a CSA that is an MSA by government standards only. There are two unique metro areas, The Peninsula and The Southside, and combined they are the Hampton Roads metropolis...
Southside is 1.194 million people as of 2017 estimates. That is a spot on indicator of the urban amenities you can expect to see when coming here...
I have noticed this more on here than real life, but some people conflate Norfolk as the alpha city of the region and both Norfolk and Virginia Beach as larger cities than Richmond, neither of which is true. Norfolk is the historic big city of the region, but is not an alpha city and in modern times, is increasingly less distinguishable from Virginia Beach as the primary city here. It will never not be the traditional center. But for better or worse, Nfk and VB are twin cities, not unlike Minneapolis and St. Paul. Their borders bleed together seamlessly and while both are unique, the general culture in both is indistinguishable...
And no one who has been to both here and Richmond will confuse Nfk, VB, or the combination of the two as larger than Richmond in realistic or practical terms...
I feel people, particularly Californians, do this with Sacramento. It is often derided as some sleepy farm town which is a really inaccurate picture to present, just because it doesn't have the glamor of coastal Cali...
Ironically, I have never heard one person who isn't a native Californian, but who has visited Sac, deride it at all. So I think because Sac isn't in the public consciousness, people have no concept of how large it is, but when you've been there, it checks out as on par with pretty much every other similarly-sized city...
What counties belong in MSA Tampa that aren't there?
I think this topic can center on a variety of factors. While I think no one would disagree about Cleveland's position in NE Ohio, it would be a really underwhelming city if it was considered a peer of 3-3.5 million cities. I find Cleveland to feel perfectly sized, which is to say, the activity I noticed on the streets, the traffic, the size of the core, downtown, transit functions, etc....in person all of this seems comparable to other cities between 2-2.5 million. Not more or less than, but right where it should be. Conversely, Baltimore, with a population of over 2.8 million, feels noticeably larger than Cleveland, which is one of the cities Clevelanders compare to when Akron is combined to Cleveland...
So there are two sides here, what Cleveland "should be" according to function of the region as told best by natives and locals, and what Cleveland actually looks like to visitors and travelers. Both can be true and there seems to be a disconnect on here between both groups. I understand the "should be" point, but the actual experience of Cleveland as a visitor isn't really as large a city as I think Clevelanders believe it to be, so the comparison to the other two Ohio cities is more apt!
Baltimore is a bad example to use, IMO, because Baltimore-DC is in the same boat as Cleveland-Akron, in that while I haven't done the math, I'm guessing it just misses the cutoff of a combined MSA by a couple percentage points. So yeah, Baltimore, which is one of the most urban cities in the country, does feel bigger. To me, it is the northern anchor of a metro area of 9 million people, whether recognized or not.
But even Cleveland-Akron vs. Baltimore isn't that much of a difference.
Population
Baltimore: 2,808,175
Cleveland-Akron: 2,762,349
Land area
Baltimore: 2,601 square miles
Cleveland-Akron: 2,895
GDP
Baltimore: 192.178
Cleveland-Akron: 175.498
So, Baltimore has an edge, but it's not as big of one as you make it seem.
And Cleveland-Akron would stack up just fine with other metros in the 2.5 to 3 million range ... Tampa, Denver, St. Louis, Charlotte, Orlando, Portland and San Antonio.
Population
Tampa: 3,091,399
Denver: 2,888,227
St. Louis: 2,807,338
Cleveland-Akron: 2,762,349
Charlotte: 2,525,305
Orlando: 2,509,831
San Antonio: 2,473,974
Portland: 2,453,974
Land area (I realize Portland and Denver are skewed via mountain ranges, so that throws their numbers off)
Denver: 8,414
St. Louis: 7,436
San Antonio: 7,387
Portland: 6,683
Charlotte: 5,068
Orlando: 3,477
Cleveland-Akron: 2,895
Tampa: 2,514
GDP
Denver: 208.868
Cleveland-Akron: 174.498
Charlotte: 174.029
Portland: 171.772
St. Louis: 161.281
Tampa: 146.349
Orlando: 132.448
San Antonio: 129.298
The biggest metric that Cleveland-Akron would lag is population gain, though the 7 counties did post an estimated gain of about 4,500 between 2016 and 2017, and the 2018 numbers will be released in the next couple weeks so will be interesting to see where they come out. So, it may not even be factual to say the metro would be losing population anymore.
Yes, I know, but a TON of people in both counties commute to DC and DC suburbs like Montgomery County and even Northern VA. You even have more transit options from Annapolis to DC than to Baltimore. I'm just saying that those counties are partially suburbs to DC as well. If you take away parts of those counties, the population of Baltimore is actually pretty close to that of Kansas City, which might explain why they feel so similar in size.
You could take away AA county ( the larger of the two counties) completely and Baltimore's MSA would still be larger than Kansas City's MSA. Howard county's population is only 312k.
Baltimore is a bad example to use, IMO, because Baltimore-DC is in the same boat as Cleveland-Akron, in that while I haven't done the math, I'm guessing it just misses the cutoff of a combined MSA by a couple percentage points. So yeah, Baltimore, which is one of the most urban cities in the country, does feel bigger. To me, it is the northern anchor of a metro area of 9 million people, whether recognized or not.
But even Cleveland-Akron vs. Baltimore isn't that much of a difference.
Population
Baltimore: 2,808,175
Cleveland-Akron: 2,762,349
Land area
Baltimore: 2,601 square miles
Cleveland-Akron: 2,895
GDP
Baltimore: 192.178
Cleveland-Akron: 175.498
So, Baltimore has an edge, but it's not as big of one as you make it seem.
And Cleveland-Akron would stack up just fine with other metros in the 2.5 to 3 million range ... Tampa, Denver, St. Louis, Charlotte, Orlando, Portland and San Antonio.
Population
Tampa: 3,091,399
Denver: 2,888,227
St. Louis: 2,807,338
Cleveland-Akron: 2,762,349
Charlotte: 2,525,305
Orlando: 2,509,831
San Antonio: 2,473,974
Portland: 2,453,974
Land area (I realize Portland and Denver are skewed via mountain ranges, so that throws their numbers off)
Denver: 8,414
St. Louis: 7,436
San Antonio: 7,387
Portland: 6,683
Charlotte: 5,068
Orlando: 3,477
Cleveland-Akron: 2,895
Tampa: 2,514
GDP
Denver: 208.868
Cleveland-Akron: 174.498
Charlotte: 174.029
Portland: 171.772
St. Louis: 161.281
Tampa: 146.349
Orlando: 132.448
San Antonio: 129.298
The biggest metric that Cleveland-Akron would lag is population gain, though the 7 counties did post an estimated gain of about 4,500 between 2016 and 2017, and the 2018 numbers will be released in the next couple weeks so will be interesting to see where they come out. So, it may not even be factual to say the metro would be losing population anymore.
Baltimore doesn't feel like a Metropolitan area if 9 million; DC doesn't feel like a metro of 9 million either. They feel the size of their respective MSA populations. Baltimore feels like a metro about the size of Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Charlotte, St. Louis; DC feels like a metro about the size of Philly, Atlanta, Miami..etc.
Neither city feels like they're in a metro the size of Chicago.
What counties belong in MSA Tampa that aren't there?
Tampa Bay tends to be viewed as smaller than it really is. There's virtually no separation between eastern suburbs and the Lakeland MSA (700,000+), and on the south side of Tampa Bay itself, only a bridge separates St. Pete from Bradenton, part of the Sarasota MSA (700,000+). It has decentralized centers of activity, but quite a few of them- it's one of the few major metros to not have a specified CSA, but if it did, it would be over four million. But Bay Area planners have considered the immediate metro to be over that for well over a decade. It's also often considered a much larger media market (#11 according to Nielsen). Finally, I think the Tampa Bay metro is quite a bit larger than places like Charlotte, which is more centralized around one city and looks bigger on paper than it really is, and has a relatively small proportion of the overall population considered "urban." And yet, comparatively for its size), Tampa lacks in urban infrastructure, with rivalries (Tampa/Hillsborough County vs. St. Petersburg/Pinellas County) holding it back from moving in unity on big projects like regional transportation. But realistically, the metropolitan area is more along the lines, sizewise, of Seattle or MSP.
I agree with many of the other observations you made- namely that Sacramento is generally more underestimated than San Diego, and Baltimore feels much larger than it is (on paper), and larger than places like Cleveland or St. Louis. But to their credit, I feel like most people consider it to really be an immediate part of the much larger Baltimore-DC metro.
Last edited by bartonizer; 04-13-2019 at 02:10 PM..
Baltimore doesn't feel like a Metropolitan area if 9 million; DC doesn't feel like a metro of 9 million either. They feel the size of their respective MSA populations. Baltimore feels like a metro about the size of Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Charlotte, St. Louis; DC feels like a metro about the size of Philly, Atlanta, Miami..etc.
Neither city feels like they're in a metro the size of Chicago.
I agree, density wise DC-Baltimore is no comparison to Chicago.
But to me, it still feels like a huge metro area. My wife has family in College Park so we visit them every couple of years and I never realized how close Baltimore was until we were by University of Maryland and the street sign (Baltimore Road) showed Baltimore being like 30 miles away. We decided to take the drive up there to check out the city (usually we do go to DC when visiting, however). Anyway, to me it never felt like you ever left one distinct metro and entered another, it all kind of blended together with at least suburban level density and a few spots that I guess could be considered semi rural.
So, at least that's why I view it as one metro with Baltimore being the anchor on the north and D.C./No. Va on the south with a bunch of suburbs and historical little towns between the two.
Is this a California thing? I've literally never heard refer to San Diego as a small beach town. Compared to LA, yes. But if anything, I think people are surprised that places like Tampa (which is penalized by its classification, and should include part of the Lakeland and Sarasota MSA population and is more like four million) are as large as they are, not the other way around.
I agree Tampa Bay should include the Sarasota MSA. Lakeland is tricky as it's in Polk county winch was just added to the Orlando CSA. Both Orlando and Tampa have ties to their respective sides of polk county. Its just that the Orlando side is non stop development from Winter Haven basically into Orlando. For Lakeland there's a gap in development. Tampa Bay actually has around 4 million, and as of 2018 Orlando's CSA will have over 4 million as well. Florida actually has 3 areas over 4 million, and SW Florida has over a million along with Jacksonville. Meaning Florida has 5 areas over one million.
Finally, I think the Tampa Bay metro is quite a bit larger than places like Charlotte, which is more centralized around one city and looks bigger on paper than it really is, and has a relatively small proportion of the overall population considered "urban." And yet, comparatively for its size), Tampa lacks in urban infrastructure, with rivalries (Tampa/Hillsborough County vs. St. Petersburg/Pinellas County) holding it back from moving in unity on big projects like regional transportation. But realistically, the metropolitan area is more along the lines, sizewise, of Seattle or MSP.
Interesting. So given how the urban infrastructure lags, would you say the region underachieves and from an amenity comparison is more comparable to Charlotte than Seattle? That's the impression I've always gotten, that Tampa, while being factually larger, has the infrastructure and urban sensibilities of cities more in the Charlotte range rather than the Seattle range...
Most definitely a small portion if Charlotte can truly be considered urban, but in Charlotte's defense, it has the infrastructure and urban sensibilities commensurate with cities in its class, and feels larger than some of those peers in some respects...
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