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Yes, the location of KC pretty much sucks. It's isolated and the rural areas around KC don't offer much (MO or KS side) within a few hours. However, I do think it's better than the area around Indy. Indy is actually in a more stereotypical "kansas" area than KC (flat, few trees etc) while at least KC is mostly surrounded by lush and wooded rolling terrain. Louisville and especially Nashville beat KC though.
Minor nitpicking perhaps, but let's at least keep the internet commentating fair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo
It will be interesting to see all of these cities in 10-20 years. Louisville could evolve into more of a major metro and possibly land a pro team. I think Nashville will continue to boom and could have more of an Austin or Charlotte type skyline. Indianapolis and Kansas City will continue to develop. Indy and Nashville may pass KC in population over the next couple of decades, but KC will continue to grow and add density at a nice pace and remain the more urban feeling city with more amenities. If KC is able to expand the streetcar and finally connect the plaza to downtown (which would bring make midtown take off), I think KC's urban core will be pretty untouchable compared to the other three cities even if Nashville goes on a skyscraper building boom.
Right now, it sure feels to me that Nashville has a much higher ceiling than the other three. I don't know much about Louisville's and Nashville's transit plans, but Indy is also planning a BRT red line to run from Broad Ripple through downtown and south through UIndy. All four are doing things to better themselves, and I agree, I think all four are going to be fun to watch into the future.
I am really hoping Louisville gets an NBA team, the regional rivalry could be off the charts.
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
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Louisville is historically on par with those other 3 and should still be. But a combination of dysfunctional state and local gov't and too many people being anti growth has caused stagnation. Most cities do all they can to grow, here it can be like pulling teeth.
Louisville literally turned down the NBA because of fear it would hurt the Univ. of Louisville team. When the nation's nicest basketball arena was built the contract stated that no NBA team could play there. Only possible way to get a big league team now is probably Major League Soccer as the first year 3rd tier soccer team here is drawing up to 10k for games.
Louisville also fights infrastructure improvements. There was a huge fight against building 2 new bridges simply because of the fear that Indiana would benefit. Every excuse under the sun was used, from wetlands destruction to "it's not needed", etc. Louisville is by far the worst traffic jam between Chicago and the gulf. Thankfully enough people forced the project forward and 2 new bridges and a downtown interchange rebuild is a year from completion, although a prominent family got KDOT to agree to building a $300 million tunnel under their yard. No joke, google Drumenard Tunnel. Only independent media cover that debacle. Local residents also keep I-71 and I-64 from being modernized.
The local media here, especially newspaper, has consistently editorialized against anything that would move the city forward. They were against airport expansion that brought the UPS hub, against the bridges project, against the NBA, etc.
Nashville and Indy are state capitals which really helps them. KY's capital is 2/3s of the way to Lexington, so only one county gets some growth. The lion's share stays in the Lexington area. KC doesn't have a capital and also straddles two states. Kentucky is overall low cost but isn't the most business friendly state. Indiana (ranked a top 10 business friendly state) could see most of the new job growth once the bridges make the commute easier.
Louisville does have a great local restaurant scene and east of downtown is has large areas that are gentrified. It also helps that despite its shortcomings most local people here are very loyal and fewer relocate than in similar cities. There's a tremendous amount of local pride. Local parks here are outstanding, you can hike, camp, canoe, picnic, and bike within 20 miles of downtown and even more parks are being built.
This thread seems pretty civil to me. I have been reading it but just have not posted. All the cities are fun up and coming cities.
I agree, it has been fun. It gets a little heated at times, but always civil. That said, for middle America, all four cities are doing really really well. Until around the late 1990's, we could not say that about Louisville. It definitely was hit the worse with the industrial decline. Also, census data has reiterated while Louisivlle always has, and always will, have problems that places like Nashville and Indy will never have as state capitols, even if they do not get EVERY last project. Louisville cannot even get crumbs from the state.
But since the merger, the city of Louisville has "woken up." I still contend it is a "sleeping giant." I remember first visiting the city in the early 90's with my father and thinking, "this city has so much untapped potential and its residents have no idea!" We are about to get a list together of the construction and proposed development projects in Louisville. Louisville is seeing its largest building boom in the urban core in almost 100 years. Hopefully, there will be a list not unlike Nashville Business Journals Crane Watch list. Of course, Louisville doesn't have the extent of the boom that Nashville has in the least, but it is not too terribly far behind, and many of the biggest projects are complete rehabs of old 10-20 story towers. The most exciting part? Almost all the investment is coming from outside developers....as far as LA and NYC, and as close as Nashville, Indy, and Columbus, whose development community sees big time opportunity in Louisville. This is fueled by the fact that Louisville is a very affordable city and has one of the best apartment cap rates in this region of the USA. Very exciting times here.
Last edited by Peter1948; 10-01-2015 at 11:12 AM..
Louisville is historically on par with those other 3 and should still be. But a combination of dysfunctional state and local gov't and too many people being anti growth has caused stagnation. Most cities do all they can to grow, here it can be like pulling teeth.
Louisville literally turned down the NBA because of fear it would hurt the Univ. of Louisville team. When the nation's nicest basketball arena was built the contract stated that no NBA team could play there. Only possible way to get a big league team now is probably Major League Soccer as the first year 3rd tier soccer team here is drawing up to 10k for games.
Louisville also fights infrastructure improvements. There was a huge fight against building 2 new bridges simply because of the fear that Indiana would benefit. Every excuse under the sun was used, from wetlands destruction to "it's not needed", etc. Louisville is by far the worst traffic jam between Chicago and the gulf. Thankfully enough people forced the project forward and 2 new bridges and a downtown interchange rebuild is a year from completion, although a prominent family got KDOT to agree to building a $300 million tunnel under their yard. No joke, google Drumenard Tunnel. Only independent media cover that debacle. Local residents also keep I-71 and I-64 from being modernized.
The local media here, especially newspaper, has consistently editorialized against anything that would move the city forward. They were against airport expansion that brought the UPS hub, against the bridges project, against the NBA, etc.
Nashville and Indy are state capitals which really helps them. KY's capital is 2/3s of the way to Lexington, so only one county gets some growth. The lion's share stays in the Lexington area. KC doesn't have a capital and also straddles two states. Kentucky is overall low cost but isn't the most business friendly state. Indiana (ranked a top 10 business friendly state) could see most of the new job growth once the bridges make the commute easier.
Louisville does have a great local restaurant scene and east of downtown is has large areas that are gentrified. It also helps that despite its shortcomings most local people here are very loyal and fewer relocate than in similar cities. There's a tremendous amount of local pride. Local parks here are outstanding, you can hike, camp, canoe, picnic, and bike within 20 miles of downtown and even more parks are being built.
The last sentence is the biggest. Louisville has a class of "young yuppies" that don't leave the city like they do in other mid sized, middle american cities. This class of people are really changed the city, and since unemployment is at a 10 year low, going down towards 4%, there are more and more, and better jobs than ever before. With its high QOL and low COL, why would any of them leave Louisville? When they leave, it is often in their mid 20's for a few years to establish their careers in NYC, CA, or major markets, and then they return to Louisville more worldly and refined. I have never seen a similar meme in a mid sized city, and I think it is what creates some of the "parochial" or "insular" vibe that the city has been traditionally been known for (that has changed a lot in the past 3-5 years due to a greater percentage of migration into Louisville and its very high international immigrant growth rate:
I cannot find more recent data, but I know Louisville's in migration, both domestic and international, has even accelerated since 2006.
Louisville has biggest gain in number of adults with degrees
This has only accelerate din the 3 years this article was written. Louisville traditionally has had lower educational attainment for adults than its peers cities. There is a reason for this. You can earn more without a college degree in Louisville than ANY city in America according to one data pool. According to another data pool, KC is at the top. See the link at the top of this article for the PDF of the study:
KCMO, as someone who has visited all four cities (multiple times to Nashville, KC and Louisville .. only once to Indy), I agree with you that Kansas City is the most urban of the four. I was very surprised by KC the first time I visited it. I didn't expect it to have as much as it does. It's major drawback is how isolated it is. No offense to the good folks of Kansas, but proximity to your state isn't exactly a bonus.
I picked Nashville over KCMO because it has a much better live music scene (and not just country.. anyone who thinks Nashville is just country music has obviously never been there) and it has easier access to other parts of the country.
I also agree with you about Louisville. It's fourth of the four in urbanity. Still, it's a cool, up and coming place that seems interested in smart development, so it gets points for that. If I were considering living in any of the four, it would come down to Nashville and Louisville for me, and I could very well end up in Louisville if I could find the right house in the right neighborhood.
I hate to stir up the Indy crowd, and I'm not trying to bash, but as a matter of personal taste .. it's last in my book. It's just a very bland city in the middle of a very bland state.
I agree with most you say, but I think Louisville is number 2 in urbanity after KC. The reason is that it has a few preserved 19th century neighborhoods that the other 3 cities lack, as they all boomed after 1900. Folks, when they look at Louisville, tend to forget that it was historically the "Falls Cities." Jeffersonville and New Albany, IN, while technically small towns, are effectively inner urban neighborhoods of Louisville that are dense, historic, and walkable. That, and Louisville really was "neck and neck" with KC and Indy population wise until the post WWII era, when Louisville was hit hardest by the industrial decline and lacked support from state government until the last 2 decades, to reverse it (Louisville's pop "appeared" a few thousand smaller since the city was half the size in land area historically as KC and Indy as it did not aggressively annex booming suburbs like they did) None of the 4 cities, with the possible exception of KC and the Plaza, has a neighborhood that can touch the urbanity, walkability, and 24/7 vitality of the Highlands in Louisville. I am 100% positive of that. The Highlands is not one neighborhood, but actually 12. It is much much more than a commercial strip on Bardstown Rd.
The man who designed NYC's Central Park also completely designed the park system in Louisville. The flagship park is Cherokee Park in the Highlands. Louisville has 1 of 4 completed park systems he designed in the world. Many parks around the city can be attributed to him and our entire parkway system throughout the region.
You broght up TripAdvisor so let's put those tripadvisor #'s through the gambit here:
Louisville
Hotels: 94
Restaurants: 1590
Things to Do: 230
Vacation Rentals: 61
Kansas City
Hotels: 110
Restaurants: 1260
Things to Do: 211
Vacation Rentals: 46
Indianapolis
Hotels: 184
Restaurants: 2130
Things to Do: 261
Vacation Rentals: 25
Nashville
Hotels: 152
Restaurants: 1818
Things to do: 396
Vacation Rentals: 208
These are the snapshots from tripadvisor for all four cities. Yeah, I know tripadvisor is a good source until it's numbers don't come out the way we like them to. Then it's bad. KC, this isn't the first time you've stated KC has more things to do and of course I retorted no, it's about the same always. Just starting with that metric, Nash is definitely above its weight class. It's up there. KC dead last actually below it's weight class. All 4 cities have multiple museums and this and that and some type of memorial or memorials somewhere.
Ultimately on paper at least, Nash and Louisville are punching above KC (on paper, reality may be totally different and always subjective).
Now is tripadvisor going to capture every little nook and cranny of a city? No. just as the census misses people entities like tripadvisor will miss a restaurant or some obscure thing to do. Seeing as how the permits of said places are easy to obtain, should be somewhat accurate.
Taking the numbers of all 4. If you are a person(s) who can't find something to do in any of these places, it's not the city it is YOU. You are just a boring person or too lazy to actually get out and about and expect every nook and cranny of a city to just fall at your doorstep which I notice a lot of younger people tend to want nowadays.
Disclaimer: In no way shape or form am I advocating one city over the other. Personal choices are personal choices but since numbers do actually matter in life, they by right should also be included.
I was only talking about the WW1 Museum and mentioned trip adviser because the museum has some of the best and most reviews of any similar type museum in the country. But if you really want to look at the details. KC has more "quality" attractions with tons of reviews and positive comments. You have to be a top attraction to get a five star rating with over 2200 reviews, (most from out of towners). I'm sure you understand that most of the things listed as things to do are fluff. If you take the top 30 attractions of all four cities, I stand by my opinion that KC has more high quality attractions no matter how many entries there may be on trip adviser. And trip adviser ranks attraction weird. They will put some random small thing with three reviews in the top ten and put a major attraction at number 75, so you have to do some homework when using the site.
I think KC and Indy have about 35,000 hotel rooms and nashville under 30,000. Louisville only has 17k. So you can't compare the number of room by the number of hotels on trip adviser.
Again, I was just pointing out that a single attraction in KC has very good reviews in large numbers.
In my opinion, after Nashville, Louisville has the most character and livability. Louisville is very urban compared to KC and Indy, sure downtown Louisville isn't entirely on par with Indy but it isn't very behind, but what's unique about Louisville is that despite it being smaller than Indy & KC it is more urban because of the neighborhoods. Louisville's historic neighborhoods is filled with coffee shops, art gallery's, restaurants, etc that can't be found in a lot of big midwestern cities which is what makes Louisville a unique city. Also, despite being a smaller city, it is known to be associated with many famous people that gives the city a character and unique vibe.
In short, what I'm trying to say is despite Indy being geographically close to Louisville, they are very different. Whoever visits Louisville will have a hard time comparing it to a other U.S. city as it's unique in its offerings compared to Indy, KC, Columbus, Grand Rapids, etc.
I agree with most you say, but I think Louisville is number 2 in urbanity after KC. The reason is that it has a few preserved 19th century neighborhoods that the other 3 cities lack, as they all boomed after 1900. Folks, when they look at Louisville, tend to forget that it was historically the "Falls Cities." Jeffersonville and New Albany, IN, while technically small towns, are effectively inner urban neighborhoods of Louisville that are dense, historic, and walkable. That, and Louisville really was "neck and neck" with KC and Indy population wise until the post WWII era, when Louisville was hit hardest by the industrial decline and lacked support from state government until the last 2 decades, to reverse it (Louisville's pop "appeared" a few thousand smaller since the city was half the size in land area historically as KC and Indy as it did not aggressively annex booming suburbs like they did) None of the 4 cities, with the possible exception of KC and the Plaza, has a neighborhood that can touch the urbanity, walkability, and 24/7 vitality of the Highlands in Louisville. I am 100% positive of that. The Highlands is not one neighborhood, but actually 12. It is much much more than a commercial strip on Bardstown Rd.
I agree with this. Louisville has tons of intact urban walkable neighborhoods surrounding downtown as well. I think KC is much larger and more built up over all and has more dense feeling urban districts including historic warehouse districts that are becoming residential, but Louisville probably has a better urban fabric of single family urban neighborhoods than all the other cities.
In my opinion, after Nashville, Louisville has the most character and livability. Louisville is very urban compared to KC and Indy, sure downtown Louisville isn't entirely on par with Indy but it isn't very behind, but what's unique about Louisville is that despite it being smaller than Indy & KC it is more urban because of the neighborhoods. Louisville's historic neighborhoods is filled with coffee shops, art gallery's, restaurants, etc that can't be found in a lot of big midwestern cities which is what makes Louisville a unique city. Also, despite being a smaller city, it is known to be associated with many famous people that gives the city a character and unique vibe.
In short, what I'm trying to say is despite Indy being geographically close to Louisville, they are very different. Whoever visits Louisville will have a hard time comparing it to a other U.S. city as it's unique in its offerings compared to Indy, KC, Columbus, Grand Rapids, etc.
I am actually going to defend Indy here. Downtown Louisville IS far behind downtown Indy. Now, when all the new apartment towers in Louisville are built, the mid and high-rise apartment rehabs are done, and if all 7 of the announced downtown hotels open by 2018 along with the new convention center and about a half dozen new bourbon distilleries in a addition to the 3 already opened, and Louisville's downtown urban grocer opens, then I think that could change. At that point, the effective difference in the downtowns would be a mega office tower, nice mall retail (no Circle Center in Lville), and Indy of course doing a better job at not having so much unsightly surface parking especially as one sees in the west end of downtown Louisville. If you could see what Louisville tore down, you would drool. Louisville had districts, adjacent to downtown, as urban as Over the Rhine in Cincinnati or more likely, Soulard in St Louis, but maybe in 2-3 story row house type of buildings instead of 4 stories. They had this for miles and blocks! All of it was replaced by low density 70s era concrete buildings. Louisville, in its historic state. Not only was deindustrialization hurting Louisville by the 1930s, but the great flood of 1937 was the icing on the cake. 2/3 of the city was under water. This was an event WORSE than what happened with Katrina in New Orleans. By 1960, Louisville was tearing downtown BLOCKS of these antebellum buildings destroyed by time, the great Ohio River floods, and then accelerated by the race riots of the 60s when the black commercial district on Walnut street was destroyed. Louisville lost whole portions of the city to the river itself, now underwater or wetlands: Shippingport, Corn Island, the Pointe to name a few nineteenth century, densely populated areas.
But, where Louisville blows Indy out of the water in character and urbanity are its neighborhoods. In general, these areas are 1-6 miles away from the CBD. It is the periphery of the CBD that was "urban renewed" away and it can give the impression to the casual observer that Louisville is not the urban city that it is. The Highlands is actually a collection of 11 neighborhoods...but that is only the tip of the iceberg in Louisville. The Highlands of Louisville, KY USA home page
I would pit the following neighborhoods against any in Indy in terms of urbanity/vitality/walk/bikability and they are all outside the 11 neighborhoods of the Highlands: Old Louisville, Butchertown, Germantown, Beechmont, Nulu, Clifton, Crescent Hill, Jeffersonville, New Albany.
And to be honest even downtown St Matthews is more urban and walkable, with a 24/7 vitality due to its bar district, than almost any neighborhood in Indy.
What's more? Louisville has tons of up and coming, very sizable neighborhoods. Portland, Shelby Park, and Smoketown are seeing great investment.
Portland is literally the 12th place neighborhood (if that) in terms of a good, cool place to live. Yet, it has places like this:
The Table restaurant there which is a "pay what you can concept" will be as good as anything in Indy...yet it is in an area deemed "ghetto" by locals (a lot of truth to this, but it is not as horrible as most make it to be). This is the "New Orleans" effect in Louisville at play, where the "hip" areas have gotten too "expensive (by the Midwest's standards)" so new territories are being chartered. Portland is very much like where the Bywater meets the 9th ward in New Orleans.
Last edited by Peter1948; 10-01-2015 at 08:09 PM..
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