Richmond vs Norfolk, from a different perspective (living, best, state)
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I didn't place this in either forum because I already know what the results are going to be and I'm not interested in provicialism/parochialism. Plus, I wanted opinions of people that aren't partial to both, or do not have a vested opinion in either. I actually live in Norfolk, but I'm not entirely "sold" on Norfolk, which I'll explain below.
I think they're two entirely different cities, and comparing stats do not do either justice. Richmond's built environment is a lot more interesting, particularly if you love vertical, hilly cities, as I do because I grew up in one. Norfolk has more people, but I do not think that tells the entire story. Were Norfolk not in Hampton Roads and did not have other urban cores supplementing the metro area growth (Williamsburg, Hampton, Newport News, Portsmouth), I doubt that metro Norfolk would be as large as it is today. Richmond does a much better job of maintaining density outside of downtown than Norfolk; that could be out of necessity, as Richmond is hilly, and Norfolk is flat, or it could be for other reasons, as Richmond has water flowing through it, as opposed to around it. Hilly cities tend to have a higher density.
Richmond also has a larger, denser, downtown area. Norfolk has its high rises, but that appears to be the primary tactic of that city for increasing density. Plus Norfolk has a lot of poverty, relies on real estate taxes for "growth", and doesn't have a true economy in that sense. The row houses give parts of Richmond the feeling of a city like Baltimore, but I think it is more likely a smaller Cincinnati, if anything.
Both cities are "real cities", but the fact that Norfolk tears down, and starts over again, makes Richmond more appealing. At the end of the day the real benefit of Norfolk, if any, is the fact that you have other urban cores you can drive to, whereas with Richmond you get really interesting density over a small footprint, and then its over as quickly as it started.
I like Norfolk, as part of a larger metropolitan area but I don't think I would like Norfolk completely on it's own, with regular suburbs (not other cities as suburbs). Any thoughts?
I am biased of course, but I would take Richmond over Norfolk any day.
The nature of the people, the arts, the government influence, the steadily increasing population, and the untapped potential in an already blossoming city would make this an easy choice. Not to mention the urban footprint of Richmond is just so vast in comparison.
Though small, downtown Norfolk is quite nice and we here in RVA are envious of the shopping options that are available in the heart of your core (MacArthur Mall)...but the organic growth here in RVA makes it all worthwhile.
Oh, and for Norfolk's light rail. This is something else that Richmond could greatly benefit from building.
I've never been to either, but from what I see and know, I'd most likely prefer Richmond. I like old cities with old architecture and it seems like Richmond has way more.
It really, really doesn't help that Norfolk keeps getting destroyed. I believe it's been destroyed/wiped out 3 or so separate times, and that doesn't include its totally botched attempt at Urban Renewal back in the 50s/60s.
I honestly like Norfolk a lot, frankly, and that's coming from someone born and raised in VB. (As you probably know, most people in VB look at Norfolk with disdain). It's got a lot of soul. I've never stopped in Richmond, though, and only driven through it a couple times.
I've never stopped in Richmond either. I saw it today watching cycling and I was really impressed. I may have to check it out in person.
Crazy thing is those old photographs of Norfolk back in the day. It looked a lot more like a dense city back then. We talk about Ghent in Norfolk. But that seems to be the norm in Richmond. I don't know, I'll always like Norfolk, because it has a lot of soul, and its gritty. But it would be nice to see the old infrastructure.
Going forward Norfolk will resemble Northern Virginia, and people will just accept it. There aren't too many projects built to old standards anymore.
Well I've of course been to both, and although I've lived in Richmond and was raised in its suburbs, I've been to Norfolk plenty of times, at least a dozen. I have acquaintances I grew up with who live there now---in fact, one of my best friends in high school, grew up right on my block, lives there now. As a disclaimer, both have unrivaled urbanity compared to anywhere else I have been in the South: Atlanta, Dallas, Carolina cities, Tennessee cities, Birmingham...I only passed through Louisville on the way to Indianapolis, and I've heard Louisville gives off a pretty urban feel. I guess because both cities are very old and came of age pre-automobile, maybe that explains it...
I'm not familiar enough with Norfolk to diagnose its problems. However, as time goes on, it's becoming increasingly clear (and has always been so to an extent) that there is no real alpha city in Hampton Roads; Norfolk and the Beach are 1a/1b. Sure, Norfolk historically is the cultural heartbeat, but honestly, from an outsider's perspective, the two aren't so different. And that's the thing: the perception that neither really outweighs the other. I mean, even driving either direction on Newtown or VB Blvd, there is no definite change in landscape or architecture that signals you've passed from one city into the next; but for the fact that the cities of Hampton Roads aren't united, these two cities would seem as one (as would Newport News/Hampton)...
I think from people who grow up in Greater Richmond/Richmond city who relocate to Norfolk, the appeal lies in the difference in atmosphere. I'm having trouble conjuring the right superlatives, but Norfolk is just so "chill" compared to Richmond. I've noticed people there are much more relaxed. It is very gritty, as you said, but so is Richmond. I think Richmond is far more cosmopolitan, while Norfolk is far more blue collar. It works to Norfolk's detriment that it has no real suburbs, besides the further out areas (and Chesapeake, which is a suburb of Norfolk, Virginia Beach, and Portsmouth). Historically, Portsmouth is the second or third city of HRVA, and it's certainly not a suburb of Norfolk in a realistic sense. Virginia Beach historically is, but I think it's turned that corner in the last 15-20 years. It has its own identity, which is the antithesis of suburb, and the fact that it's the largest city in the Tidewater--in The Commonwealth--definitely lends credence to the notion it's lost it's suburban image....
I love Hampton Roads, and would jump at the chance to move to Norfolk. But realistically, you get a much richer urban experience, on nearly every measure, living in Richmond. Whether that's due to the way HRVA is built up, or in part with other reasons, Richmond definitely offers a more varied and diverse existence. Whether that is 'better' or not is subjective...
Just curious, since I'm pretty sure the Norfolk/Virginia Beach area has a large military population. Does the military have a strong enough impact on the region to influence the city? Maybe a more transient population of people only staying for a few years, more conservative politics leading to suburbanization and car-centric lifestyles, less appeal to the younger/urban/hipster/yuppie crowd? Idk, just a thought. I know almost nothing about either so just a thought to throw out there.
Just curious, since I'm pretty sure the Norfolk/Virginia Beach area has a large military population. Does the military have a strong enough impact on the region to influence the city? Maybe a more transient population of people only staying for a few years, more conservative politics leading to suburbanization and car-centric lifestyles, less appeal to the younger/urban/hipster/yuppie crowd? Idk, just a thought. I know almost nothing about either so just a thought to throw out there.
The military's impact on the area is enormous. The population is very transient, the politics in several cities in the Southside are fairly conservative, and for a large portion of the area, it's pretty suburban. However, Virginia Beach is, IMO, fairly tapped out for suburban spread. It's getting to the point where the places they can expand to are just too far from the Interstate/the other cities. Should this area begin to recover from sequestration (the economy is *not* doing so hot right now), I can imagine VB building up rather than out. VB has a couple pockets of "urbanity", namely the Oceanfront and Pembroke. That being said, as a city, it's very, very weird.
Norfolk is pretty urban.
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for Norfolk's light rail. This is something else that Richmond could greatly benefit from building.
