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Detroit is more of a Great Lakes city than a river city, despite its location on the Detroit River, because at least it's between the big lakes. Detroit and Cleveland are both international ports. Pittsburgh is for sure a river city, with a port that handles more trade but it's entirely domestic.
We're talking here of the cities themselves, not necessarily their metro areas.
Vistas from downtown Detroit are of Windsor, Canada.
You can't see Canada from Cleveland, except perhaps from the Terminal Tower observatory on a clear day.
Downtown Cleveland has marinas and is less than 10 minutes from a lake beach. It has the Steamship Mather and U.S.S. Cod maritime museums. There's nothing like that to my memory in downtown Detroit.
Admittedly, the best ship viewing on the Detroit River is of massive lake freighters and not barge trains, as in Pittsburgh, but it's still a river city and not lake city in its essence.
Detroit originally was founded as a fort to control access to the upper Great Lakes and the North American interior. Similarly, Pittsburgh was founded as a fort to control access to the Ohio River and the American interior.
Cleveland's growth was secured as the Great Lakes port city for the Ohio & Erie Canal. Several other cities vied for that honor, but Cleveland's politicians prevailed.
Last time I looked, basically everywhere within Cleveland city limits on the East Side was majority black aside from University Circle/Little Italy, a few parts of North Collinwood, some parts of Buckeye Shaker, mixed areas (including whites and Asians) in the Goodrich Kirkland area, and a declining population in North/South Broadway. The suburbs might have a lot of white people, but the suburbs don't count if we're comparing cities.
In 2010 the west side of Cleveland had around 180,000 people, and was around 60% white, 17.5% black, and 20% Latino.
We're comparing just cities and the suburbs don't count? News to me reading this thread. When Clevelanders refer to the East Side, they are referring at a minimum to the eastern suburbs of Cuyahoga County and likely western Lake and Geauga Counties as well as the portion of Cleveland east of the Cuyahoga.
Shaker Heights, University Hts., Beachwood, Highland Heights, Mayfield and Mayfield Hts. and points east in Cuyahoga County and certainly Lake and Geauga County are not majority black. Even Cleveland Hts. and Richmond Hts. are not majority black as of the 2010 census. Given the RTA lines, Shaker Hts. and Cleveland Hts. are very integral to Cleveland.
We're comparing just cities and the suburbs don't count? News to me reading this thread. When Clevelanders refer to the East Side, they are referring at a minimum to the eastern suburbs of Cuyahoga County and likely western Lake and Geauga Counties as well as the portion of Cleveland east of the Cuyahoga.
Shaker Heights, University Hts., Beachwood, Highland Heights, Mayfield and Mayfield Hts. and points east in Cuyahoga County and certainly Lake and Geauga County are not majority black. Even Cleveland Hts. and Richmond Hts. are not majority black as of the 2010 census. Given the RTA lines, Shaker Hts. and Cleveland Hts. are very integral to Cleveland.
Really? People refer to suburbs as being part of the "East Side?" That boggles my mind. Here in Pittsburgh, the eastern portion of the city is called the East End, but it pretty much ends at city limits (with the exception of some non-city portions of the neighborhood of Regent Square). Similarly, the North Side ends at city limits - everything north of there is called the North Hills.
Regardless, Cleveland's neighborhoods west of the Cuyahoga remind me more of Pittsburgh, and the neighborhoods east of the Cuyahoga remind me more of Detroit. In terms of demographics and blight anyway - in terms of built form more generally, Cleveland is more similar to Detroit all over.
Both the West and the East side of Cleveland remind me more of Detroit than Pittsburgh. Cleveland is a Midwestern city like Detroit, not a Northeastern city like Pittsburgh, even though it has Northeast influences.
Really? People refer to suburbs as being part of the "East Side?"
Yes, that's the case in Cleveland IMO. And "West Side" encompasses suburbs such as Lakewood, Rocky River, Westlake, etc. My friends who live in "West Side" suburbs certainly consider themselves West Siders, and consider me an East Sider even though I live in Lake County.
Due to family connections and other considerations, especially cultural, Clevelanders tend to stay on one side of the Cuyahoga River, or the other. Shaker Hts. and Cleveland Hts. are closely linked to downtown due to their development along the rapid/once street car lines. They were garden cities for the management class fleeing Cleveland. They've both developed strong connections with University Circle. The Mayfield area became the preferred residential home of Italians fleeing to the suburbs from Little Italy. The new American-Croation Lodge is in Eastlake (western Lake County); the old Croatian Home is now the Beachland Ballroom rock venue in North Collinwood. Slovenian cultural facilities still are in Euclid. Mentor in central Lake County is the new Euclid, and I even know some relatively recent Croatian families there.
There's one exception, in my experience.
Some East Siders that I've known ended up in Lakewood, Tremont or Ohio City, basically due to their convenience for downtown employment (especially transit connections in Ohio City and Lakewood) and the charm of these neighborhoods. Those neighborhoods and Lakewood almost could be considered part of downtown Cleveland. Lakewood's population density is the greatest between NYC and Chicago, largely due to high-rise residential development along the lake, forced there by Edgewood Park and the earlier development of small estates along the lake in Cleveland's Edgewood neighborhood. Pier W in Lakewood is Cleveland's premier lakefront dining destination and has the city's best brunch IMO; it offers good views of Lake Erie and of the Cleveland skyline.
Apart from that, I can't think of any West Sider moving to the East Side, or vice versa. I bet that reflects my age, however. As the I-271 corporate corridor has mushroomed, I would be surprised if some West Siders, especially younger ones, haven't migrated to the East Side. I just can't think of a single one, including children of friends.
More murky is what to call more southern suburbs on the I-77 corridor such as Independence, Brecksville, and Broadview Hts. In my perception, they're lumped into the West Side, but typically not referred to as such. Usually, residents there are identified by their specific suburbs. This is less true of the East Side southern suburbs, but still analogous. I know residents of Solon who consider themselves East Siders.
Residents of Lake County are considered East Siders by many Clevelanders, but never much refer to themselves as such, especially the more further west they live in Lake County.
It's an interesting point, however. It's clear in my usage, but, if interested feel free to raise the issue on the Cleveland forum. Perhaps others would feel differently.
If what you say about the usage of the terms in Pittsburgh is true, it is interesting, because the city of Cleveland's land area surprisingly is significantly greater than the city of Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh does have a slightly greater population density than the city of Cleveland.
In terms of .... blight anyway - in terms of built form more generally, Cleveland is more similar to Detroit all over.
I think this is exaggerated greatly, due to the activities of the Cleveland bashers on city-data forums.
The two most significant ones have ties to Cleveland and seem IMO psychologically driven to aggrandize their current residences in the Cincinnati/Louisville area at Cleveland's expense.
Here's just one thread that illustrates the kind of IMO absurdity inflicted on Cleveland due to these couple of IMO all-knowing, never wrong posters, who IMO often make ridiculous statements in Ohio and city vs. city forums. Any Cleveland posters who disagree with them, regardless of the factual information and links provided are labeled "Cleveland homers," regardless of their knowledge.
The above thread discusses the "blight" perception. Whenever a city loses half of its population in half a century, and has an aged housing stock, there will be issues. I imagine this is a familiar problem as well in Pittsburgh.
All I can say is that Cleveland is well past its nadir, and there are blighted areas on both the east and west side.
For someone who has traveled on Chester Ave., Euclid Ave., and Carnegie Ave. between downtown and University Circle for over a half a century, I remember both a vibrant period in the 1950s (the first McDonald's that I dined in as a kid was on Chester Ave. just west of Univ. Circle), then devastation, such as the Hough Riots.
Candidly, I don't go looking for blight in Cleveland, but I know some places where it was and where it still is today. I wouldn't comment about blight or much about Pittsburgh neighborhoods, even though I've visited the city several times in my lifetime. Getting lost once several decades ago, I do remember one scary, blighted area.
I don't know what makes you sufficiently knowledgeable to comment as you've done about Cleveland, but as noted your comments don't seem to me to be overly informed at best.
I think Cleveland is well ahead of Detroit in its recovery. If you've actually visited their downtowns and cultural districts recently, Cleveland has a significant edge.
The media reports from Cleveland this summer during the Republican National Convention will be fascinating for Clevelanders. Based on comments during the Presidential debate in November, Cleveland can expect some very good press, barring convention carnage/conflicts, always possible with Republicans visiting a Democratic stronghold that has been ravaged by Republican policies such as Lake Erie ag pollution and the Republican Toll Road through northern Ohio and Indiana, let alone local government fund cuts, and where healthcare and police reform are major issues.
I think this is exaggerated greatly, due to the activities of the Cleveland bashers on city-data forums.
The two most significant ones have ties to Cleveland and seem IMO psychologically driven to aggrandize their current residences in the Cincinnati/Louisville area at Cleveland's expense.
So Cleveland blight being similar to Detroit blight is now due to exaggerations by former residents of Cleveland who now live in Cincinnati area? I've heard it all now. I've lived in Cleveland for 28 years and currently live in Cincinnati.
I just did a search under my name and the word "blight".
Sorry, no matches.
Nothing is being exaggerated.... Cleveland is simply more like Detroit than it is Pittsburgh despite your attempts to discredit quality posters like Peter1948. He's lived in more cities than just about anyone on this message board and has a very strong understanding of what Cleveland is......and what it isn't. The constant attempts to try and to discredit the posters who have previously lived in Cleveland but instead choose not to live there for obvious reasons only hurts your own credibility.
No one is bashing precious Cleveland, but rather posting facts about it. People make these Cleveland vs xyz threads and then when others share their thoughts about Cleveland that don't favor the opinions of the Cleveland boosters, the boosters have to catch feelings about it. Just how many of these threads do we need in this section of the board so that the culprits can have self validation of where they live? Has the constant mentioning of the Cleveland Orchestra or West Side market not yet provided such validation?
So Cleveland blight being similar to Detroit blight is now due to exaggerations by former residents of Cleveland who now live in Cincinnati area? I've heard it all now. I've lived in Cleveland for 28 years and currently live in Cincinnati.
I just did a search under my name and the word "blight".
Sorry, no matches.
Nothing is being exaggerated.... Cleveland is simply more like Detroit than it is Pittsburgh despite your attempts to discredit quality posters like Peter1948. He's lived in more cities than just about anyone on this message board and has a very strong understanding of what Cleveland is......and what it isn't. The constant attempts to try and to discredit the posters who have previously lived in Cleveland but instead choose not to live there for obvious reasons only hurts your own credibility.
No one is bashing precious Cleveland, but rather posting facts about it. People make these Cleveland vs xyz threads and then when others share their thoughts about Cleveland that don't favor the opinions of the Cleveland boosters, the boosters have to catch feelings about it. Just how many of these threads do we need in this section of the board so that the culprits can have self validation of where they live? Has the constant mentioning of the Cleveland Orchestra or West Side market not yet provided such validation?
Well you just posted, "So Cleveland blight being similar to Detroit blight," so you shouldn't have a problem finding the words "Cleveland" and "blight" associated with you in the future.
Perhaps (and I emphasize "perhaps") you haven't used in the past the specific word "blight," but your thoughts about Cleveland are pretty evident. As you well know, your ridiculousness IMO includes the charge that the very profitable Beachwood Place mall, part of Cleveland's upscale shopping mecca (along with the adjacent La Place and Legacy Village), is a dangerous place where you wouldn't shop and ultimately is doomed because your family and friends, whom you say share your view, also won't shop there. Yet the mall's owners are once again expanding the property.
Readers of Peter's "trip" thread linked in post 76 can read it and judge for themselves his knowledge, objectivity, and the overall quality of his opinions. I hope that readers notice that initially Cleveland posters were polite and restrained in their responses.
Well you just posted, "So Cleveland blight being similar to Detroit blight," so you shouldn't have a problem finding the words "Cleveland" and "blight" associated with you in the future.
Perhaps (and I emphasize "perhaps") you haven't used in the past the specific word "blight," but your thoughts about Cleveland are pretty evident. As you well know, your ridiculousness IMO includes the charge that the very profitable Beachwood Place mall, part of Cleveland's upscale shopping mecca (along with the adjacent La Place and Legacy Village), is a dangerous place where you wouldn't shop and ultimately is doomed because your family and friends whom you say share your view also won't shop there. Yet the mall's owners are expanding the property.
Readers of Peter's "trip" thread linked in post 76 can read it and judge for themselves his knowledge, objectivity, and the overall quality of his opinions. I hope that readers notice that initially that Cleveland posters were polite and restrained in their responses.
The most upscale shopping mecca on the east side certainly likes to make the Cleveland news multiple times for it's crime related incidents:
As a usual shopper in this mall, I am so sad to see this mall degrading very rapidly. Looks more like the Greyhound station: many people hanging around but not shopping, stores are mostly a wreck and messy, hard to find someone at a counter if you want to buy something and the inventory of the most of stores are cheaply made at a heftier place then somewhere else. The most irritating fact for me is the mess in the stores- of course not in every one. Clothing, shoes, cosmetics, jewelry all over the floor, racks etc. Who is doing this? How uneducated are the customers coming in that they leave the place as after a hurricane?
Quote:
Originally Posted by David P Johnson
I know that I should have gone at a better time, but my experience at the mall over the last week has been horrible. Nothing but teenagers standing around, 1 out of every 10 had a bag in their hand. They are sitting at tables not eating and drinking alcohol. No security. You couldn't even walk through the food court while every single store was empty. You have a problem that better be addressed before real consumers begin going to outlet malls or wherever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeor Dicker
Pretentious. Overpriced. In total disrepair (roof leaks everywhere and they use their trash cans to catch water drips). A lot of empty stores.
As you can see based on the comments, the mall appears to have issues as the most recent 5 comments are all negative. Crocker Park and South Park mall are better places to shop at.
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