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Boston Cambridge and Somerville is 60 sq miles with population of already nearly 1 million. So if dc gets to 1 million with its crazy growth how does it pass Boston when Boston is growing and already at close to a million in 60 sq miles
I think the argument is that DC having a bigger MSA and being the national capital will have more total people in its core at any given time between tourists, office workers, marchers, and suburban pleasure seekers, etc. Even as Boston/Cam will probably continue to have a larger residential population in its 60 sq miles for the foreseeable future. Much off that density advantage will be in outlying residential neighborhoods that are dense/walkable by US standards, but that won't really give a big city feel or draw nonresidents.
I dunno think there are good stats on this. But I can see an argument that a simple res pop comparison isn't a perfect proxy for total activity.
I think the argument is that DC having a bigger MSA and being the national capital will have more total people in its core at any given time between tourists, office workers, marchers, and suburban pleasure seekers, etc. Even as Boston/Cam will probably continue to have a larger residential population in its 60 sq miles for the foreseeable future. Much off that density advantage will be in outlying residential neighborhoods that are dense/walkable by US standards, but that won't really give a big city feel or draw nonresidents.
I dunno think there are good stats on this. But I can see an argument that a simple res pop comparison isn't a perfect proxy for total activity.
Additionally, MDAllstar does mention that he’s not just talking about straight residential density like in his post about all the concentrated housing being built within 3 square miles which will have very high population density and development. My argument stays the same for that though—unless you make a very contrived rubric for what you’re considering should qualify as the urban core, DC won’t be ahead of everywhere else that’s not NYC. With three square miles of Chicago, you’re talking the Loop and then parts of the Near North Side, Near South Side and West Loop being included which have all seen massive development and population increases even as the overall city population has been essentially stagnant. With San Francisco, you’re talking the large downtown area and nearby SOMA which has seen most of the city’s development concentrated.
Basically, you try to create any reasonable metric for comparing urban cores and somewhere in the US not NYC likely “beats” DC whether now or in the next decade or two. That’s not a slight against DC as it is rapidly developing.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 06-30-2018 at 05:27 PM..
Right, and Boston+Cambridge+Somerville is a adding only a little bit less population than DC is if we go by 2010 census to 2017 estimates.
I think the big issue for Boston and the Boston area is that transit isn't doing a very good job of keeping up so all the secondary CBDs aren't well connected especially since Greater Boston's commuter rail network is fractured into two different systems.
Would we be adding Arlington, VA and Alexandria, VA if you’re adding those cities? Would we be counting just the core of DC, Arlington, and Alexandria? I don’t have the stats but the inner core of those three without the outer neighborhoods would be very dense. Pentagon City, Rosslyn-Ballston, Crystal City, Potomac Yards, and Old Town Alexandria along with the core of DC would produce a very different population density over 61 square miles.
Would we be adding Arlington, VA and Alexandria, VA if you’re adding those cities? Would we be counting just the core of DC, Arlington, and Alexandria? I don’t have the stats but the inner core of those three without the outer neighborhoods would be very dense. Pentagon City, Rosslyn-Ballston, Crystal City, Potomac Yards, and Old Town Alexandria along with the core of DC would produce a very different population density over 61 square miles.
Alexandria va is 8 miles to Georgetown and DuPont. Cambridge and Somerville are within 1/2 mile to downtown. Could play this game all day with cities miles away. Boston could remove West Roxbury and add denser cities to the north. Cambridge and Somerville are more Boston than West Roxbury
We had a thread not too long ago comparing DC to Boston and their respective suburbs. Arlington is 90% street car suburb, 10% built up urban village around the metro. Cambridge/Somerville are urban neighborhoods on par with areas like Petworth/Mt Pleasant. We can splice it lots of different ways. But, Boston/Cambridge/Somerville is objectively denser than DC/Arlington.
Now there is a case that DC has lots of tourism/business activity that isn't reflected in simple pop estimates. But that's a different argument.
We had a thread not too long ago comparing DC to Boston and their respective suburbs. Arlington is 90% street car suburb, 10% built up urban village around the metro. Cambridge/Somerville are urban neighborhoods on par with areas like Petworth/Mt Pleasant. We can splice it lots of different ways. But, Boston/Cambridge/Somerville is objectively denser than DC/Arlington.
Now there is a case that DC has lots of tourism/business activity that isn't reflected in simple pop estimates. But that's a different argument.
I guess the biggest difference here is the difference between now and the future. I was specifically talking about the development pipeline of these areas in Arlington Va and Alexandria. What is the pipeline of Cambridge and Somerville? Is it denser than what will be built from Pentagon city to Potomac Yards at full buildout?
Would we be adding Arlington, VA and Alexandria, VA if you’re adding those cities? Would we be counting just the core of DC, Arlington, and Alexandria? I don’t have the stats but the inner core of those three without the outer neighborhoods would be very dense. Pentagon City, Rosslyn-Ballston, Crystal City, Potomac Yards, and Old Town Alexandria along with the core of DC would produce a very different population density over 61 square miles.
It sort of depends on how you want to draw the line. The 61 square miles inclusive of Cambridge and Somerville an attempt to get some form of an apples to apples comparison, and it’s helped by how closely located Boston’s downtown is to both of these cities and that DC is 61 square miles of land versus Boston's 48 square miles. Plus, the Charles River that separates Boston from these isn’t that formidable with Boston also having extant territory on that side of the Charles. Add another 41 square miles to DC for Alexandria and Arlington, then you can go find another 41 square miles for the Boston area. At some point, you'll probably find a reasonable DC over Boston argument.
Certainly I think there is some reasonable criteria to argue that the DC urban core is larger and for that reason I put Boston only just above DC overall in an earlier post—somewhat different sets of criteria will have one or the other ahead and I don’t argue against that. However, my contention with your previous post is that somehow DC will overall lead the pack under NYC in the near future, because I don’t think it’s likely that someone can put together a reasonable criteria by which that will be true. Again, I've got nothing against DC and having the most vibrant urban core or not doesn't mean one city is better than another.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 06-30-2018 at 11:32 PM..
It sort of depends on how you want to draw the line. The 61 square miles inclusive of Cambridge and Somerville an attempt to get some form of an apples to apples comparison, and it’s helped by how closely located Boston’s downtown is to both of these cities and that DC is 61 square miles of land versus Boston's 48 square miles. Plus, the Charles River that separates Boston from these isn’t that formidable with Boston also having extant territory on that side of the Charles. Add another 41 square miles to DC for Alexandria and Arlington, then you can go find another 41 square miles for the Boston area. At some point, you'll probably find a reasonable DC over Boston argument.
Certainly I think there is some reasonable criteria to argue that the DC urban core is larger and for that reason I put Boston only just above DC overall in an earlier post—somewhat different sets of criteria will have one or the other ahead and I don’t argue against that. However, my contention with your previous post is that somehow DC will overall lead the pack under NYC in the near future, because I don’t think it’s likely that someone can put together a reasonable criteria by which that will be true. Again, I've got nothing against DC and having the most vibrant urban core or not doesn't mean one city is better than another.
Are we talking about population density or the built form? If we’re talking about the built form, what is the criteria for being considered part of the urban core?
Are we talking about population density or the built form? If we’re talking about the built form, what is the criteria for being considered part of the urban core?
You decide one and let’s see if it’s reasonable and has DC ahead.
You decide one and let’s see if it’s reasonable and has DC ahead.
Well, my definition is pretty inclusive. I think different cities have different types of development, but all cities do possess a mix of building types in urban core neighborhoods. So, because in urban core neighborhoods you’re going to get apartment buildings and row-houses, I will say as long as your row-house neighborhoods have apartment buildings along the large avenues those neighborhoods can be included. Single building type neighborhoods consisting of single family detached houses would not be included in the urban core.
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