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Other than the street parking, and the houses being tightly packed and old, wouldn't this technically be suburban? What exactly makes this "urban?" There's plenty of cul de sac neighborhoods where the houses are just as close, if not closer. I'm just curious.
54k per square mile is way past the point of beinf suburban
54k per square mile is way past the point of beinf suburban
Population density is overrated, as a measure of urbanity. I think urbanity is a combination of built form, walkability and density. There are Third World shantytowns with incredibly high population densities that don’t have plumbing or sidewalks. I would not categorize those areas as urban. At the same time, there are highly developed areas in rustbelt cities that underwent depopulation and, and now have relatively low population densities. Those places didn’t lose their urbanity.
Other than the street parking, and the houses being tightly packed and old, wouldn't this technically be suburban? What exactly makes this "urban?" There's plenty of cul de sac neighborhoods where the houses are just as close, if not closer. I'm just curious.
In all fairness, the majority of those houses are multi-family units. In order to fully gauge the urbanity, one would really need to know what the rest of the neighborhood is like. Some truly suburban apartment communities can look really urban, up close. Likewise, some very urban SFH neighborhoods can appear suburban, at a glance.
Exactly I find I just expect to see certain things when someone says an area is urban even if it is new development like a bunch of the buildings in the South Boston streetview I posted are and when those elements aren't present I tend to miss how it may be urban just in a different way than I am used to.
For example Midtown Atlanta feels like a weird combo of urban and suburban in central area around Peachtree even though the development is dense because of the width of many of the streets and the lack of retail in the podiums/parking garages of a lot of the buildings in that area. It is urban but I see it as less urban than I think a lot of other people would because most of my experiences with cities is in the northeast. As far as the residential neighborhoods near Midtown they feel like small town urban blocks or the outer reaches of Boston that are often referred to as suburban for example West Roxbury so again my perspective leads me to see a functionally urban neighborhood as rather suburban.
I agree and get your point, that's why I made the comment you have to have been to other cities around the country before you can kinda engage in this conversation to be honest at the very least, do your research and be real. You can't go off of perception or even popularity or Hype in your mind,,, not gonna work with this.. In order to know you have to have a true interpretation of what Urban density really is and no disrespect to those who may not understand that but it's not just a bunch of tall buildings thrown up, and an Owww, Wow popularity symbol thrown up and you get the Urban big City plaque.. It doesn't work that way.. As much as I love my new Sunbelt Cities of Atlanta, Nashville, etc. , they don't get that true Urban, Dense award from me.. Wilmington, DE. Louisville, Ky., Richmond, VA., Trenton, NJ, etc. would beat out these two in that department as an example and we all know none of these cities are on the popularity level as a Nashville or Atlanta.. I'm not here to baby anyone on an ego trip of wanting to be the Big Big Urban City here, not going to happen.. Let's be honest here on all aspects and no one can win all the awards
Your first sentence here--it method can't account for the differences in built form...
The Northeast has most of the most urban cities in the nation, but once we get past the big names, the margin between Northeast cities and other cities in other regions around the country shrinks. For example, no, Atlanta isnt one of the most urban cities, but its a little absurd to call Trenton, a city that is about 15x smaller, more urban. Trenton has an older and more classically urban built form but it's footprint is completely dwarfed and swallowed by Atlanta, period...
Population Density buddy, Population density... This is what makes big Cities big!! Large populations in a very small area.. That's what makes the largest True Cities Huge... Not sprawling over hundreds of Square miles, Ummm I take that back, Yea it can, kinda of but in a totally different(diluted) way,,,, look at Jacksonville, FL. on the other end of the spectrum and Houston some where in the middle... True Urban Density, This is what makes New York, Newark, Chicago and on a southern city scale Miami the Urban Cities that they are... Atlanta can not win this battle if this is what you are trying to do... Not going to happen. We all know Atlanta is Larger than Trenton but Trenton is far more Urban,, please stop the trickery..
Population density is overrated, as a measure of urbanity. I think urbanity is a combination of built form, walkability and density. There are Third World shantytowns with incredibly high population densities that don’t have plumbing or sidewalks. I would not categorize those areas as urban. At the same time, there are highly developed areas in rustbelt cities that underwent depopulation and, and now have relatively low population densities. Those places didn’t lose their urbanity.
I agree that density isn't the end all, but I think there's a very strong correlation between population density and urbanity, in the context of cities in developed countries. However I think it should be looked at on a neighborhood basis rather than a census tract.
A full sized neighborhood with a population density of 80k is very likely to be extremely urban.
Other than the street parking, and the houses being tightly packed and old, wouldn't this technically be suburban? What exactly makes this "urban?" There's plenty of cul de sac neighborhoods where the houses are just as close, if not closer. I'm just curious.
None of those census blocks have more than a couple single family homes. The vast majority of the buildings in the streetviews I posted have at least three units with a couple that have two and there are a few larger buildings throughout. This is why I am saying that some outer Boston neighborhoods that are fully walkable and mid to high density are underrated. I think people see buildings like in the streetviews I posted and don't realize that those aren't single family homes and how many businesses are within walking distance. If you pay attention you can see that most of those buildings have two front doors and 2-3 mailboxes on average which should be a clue those aren't single family homes.
Walk score for each streetview:
Malden: 82
Waltham: 90
Quincy: 61 (this score is only low because retail is centered around the North Quincy stop on the red line which is a 13 minute walk away)
IMHO urbanity involves a number of different factors.
Population density - Generally speaking, the denser an area is in terms of population, the more urban it will be. This isn't universal though - you can end up with fairly high densities in small-lot suburban neighborhoods. But it is a contributing factor.
Walkability - This comprises a number of different elements. Are there sidewalks? Is the sidewalk in relatively good condition? Is there a business district within a less than 10 minute walk? Are there any barriers, like highways or major high-traffic arteries, impeding pedestrian access? Do people actually walk around the neighborhood in significant numbers? To a significant degree, the more an area is engineered for cars, the less walkable it ends up being.
Built form - A lot of different elements comprise urban built form, with neighborhoods being more on a spectrum than just urban/not urban. First, good urban streets tend to feel "enclosed" rather than "open." This means that the front walls of the buildings come together to create a feeling of an outdoor room. The narrower the street, the taller the buildings, the smaller the setback from the sidewalk, and the more minimal the side setbacks between the buildings, the more urban a street feels. Secondly, good urban streets are heterogeneous. It's simply more pleasant to walk on streets with varied facades and uses. Thus a block with lots of narrower buildings from varied ages, with everything from single-family homes to small apartment buildings, commercial storefronts, and small offices/workshops is more urban in built form than a block which takes up an entire facade. Needless to say, front-facing surface parking lots are not urban at all in built form.
among fairly large cities, on this forum, I'd say San Diego in the downtown area doesn't get mentioned for urbanity when it probably should.. most of the other cities are always promoted by people on here if they even have a trace of urbanity.
there a a bunch of smallish cities (say under 1 million in the metro) with good urban bones, but they probably just don't get mentioned because they are not on people's radar and haven't been to them.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 03-20-2018 at 01:27 PM..
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