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The big difference between Toronto and NYC is they hyper-density of Manhattan. Toronto has a lot of high rises along the lake and downtown, but it quickly transitions to rowhouses and yards.
Yes, this is exactly what I mean when I say I feel suburban in Toronto even in the middle of downtown (these streets are still in downtown). However the lack of retail can't be explained only with lack of density and low houses, because you could still have nice retail from a low house.
The main reason of lack of retail in residential areas is that the city has a very strict zoning bylaw and it is not allowed to have any kind of retail in these streets with a few exceptions(Baldwin village is one example of this exception). For example, someone I know had a healthcare clinic at a house in the Annex, only less than one block north of Bloor. One day the city staff came knocking on the door and forced him to close the business.
Last edited by brighthope; 06-08-2019 at 07:57 PM..
^ Those residential rowhouse streets are not exactly "in the middle of downtown", they are in neighbourhoods adjacent to the heavily built up, high-rise and commercial portions of the downtown core, and they are certainly not suburban!
^ Those residential rowhouse streets are not exactly "in the middle of downtown", they are in neighbourhoods adjacent to the heavily built up, high-rise and commercial portions of the downtown core, and they are certainly not suburban!
Right, they are not suburban by definition. What I'm saying is that they have the suburban feel.
And Toronto's downtown itself is not really big if you are to compare with Manhattan, let alone the core. "Downtown Toronto" is less than half the size of Manhattan already (probably 1/3 or even 1/4 of the size actually). So these streets may be a little away from the downtown core in Toronto, in Manhattan it would still be within the very core. Manhattan island is about 20km long and the distance between Lake Onatario(the south end of downtown) and Yonge/Bloor(the north edge) is only about 3km. If you walked from Lake Ontario to Bloor, you would not even be reaching Empire State Building if it were a walk from Battery Park in Manhattan. The scale is very different.
This is within a 7-8 minute walk from Yonge/Dundas, and you will find more streets like this especially east side of Yonge Street.
Another thing I want to point out is that being heavily built up has little to do with urbanity and vibrancy - if you are familiar with Toronto, think about St.James town and City Place and you will know what I mean.
Compared to most other cities, especially in North America, Toronto is very urban and I am not denying it. But it is nowhere near NYC, let alone Manhattan (or other "mega" cities like London, Tokyo, Hong Kong etc. for that matter) when it comes to scale, urbanity and vibrancy.
Last edited by brighthope; 06-09-2019 at 08:24 AM..
If you take just the heavily built up portion of DT Toronto (following an inverted T roughly from the Distillery District to Bathurst, going east-west, and Yorkville to the harborfront, north-south) it's an area as large as Downtown Chicago. However, it's true that right next to this heavily built up area you can find SFHs and suburban-ish looking blocks pretty much on all sides. And that's something you won't see in any major city in the world that I can think of (let alone in Manhattan).
Last edited by Fitzrovian; 06-09-2019 at 08:37 AM..
If you take just the heavily built up portion of DT Toronto (following an inverted T roughly from the Distillery District to Bathurst, going east-west, and Yorkville to the harborfront, north-south) it's an area as large as Downtown Chicago. However, it's true that right next to this heavily built up area you can find SFHs and suburban-ish looking blocks pretty much on all sides. And that's something you won't see in any major city in the world that I can think of (let alone in Manhattan).
I totally agree with that.
That being said, I don't think these low rise houses/buildings are the main reason why I don't really feel urban throughout downtown Toronto. It's more about the use of them. Kensington Market - for example - is very vibrant but the retail stores/restaurants there are mainly low rise houses converted into them. Yorkville is not heavily built up either (thought getting more high rises these days). Meanwhile, even if a street is full of high rise buildings, if there are not many people or commercial activities, I don't feel really urban (may not be "suburban" though).
I think if there are a few more areas like Kensington Market or Yorkville in downtown, and/or a few more streets as vibrant as Yonge, King West or Queen West, it would give a totally different impression even with the same setup. (For example, College/Carlton, Dundas East being as vibrant as Queen West, King West, Jarvis being like another Yonge, Baldwin Village spread over 2-3 more streets, another Yorkville around Garden district etc.)
This is typical big city NA... New York is on another level. Even downtown Brooklyn. No, Toronto does not feel, nor look, anything like NYC.
I mostly agree with this at least about Manhattan. I often hear(read) people say Toronto reminds them of Queens, though. I only went to Brooklyn once and I cannot judge anything from that one visit.
That being said, I do understand why some people say Toronto reminds them of NYC. Some parts of Toronto actually do resemble NYC. For example, there are many movies or TV/dramas that were set in NYC but filmed in Toronto. "Suits" is one of them.
"Due to the city of Toronto's diverse architecture and its midwestern climate cityscape, many movies set in cities like Chicago, New York City, and Washington, D.C. packaged for the American market, are filmed inToronto, only subtly acknowledged." (Copied and pasted from Wikipedia)
I'm not saying Toronto is anything like NYC when it comes to vibrancy, massiveness or super urban feel etc. and I have been saying it's ridiculous to think it is. But everyone focuses on something different when they see the city. Some might focus on some architecture that resembles NYC and feel like being in NYC. Others might focus on diversity (say, hearing 4-5 different languages at the same time on the subway) and feel it's like NYC.
But again, to me, the urban feel is about density, vibrancy, cafes/restaurants everywhere etc. and I don't think Toronto is offering them as the same level as NYC, actually not even close. But I gotta say, Toronto has improved in these areas a lot over these 10-15 years.
Last edited by brighthope; 06-09-2019 at 05:48 PM..
This is typical big city NA... New York is on another level. Even downtown Brooklyn. No, Toronto does not feel, nor look, anything like NYC.
Well..yeah..NYC broke the mold for US/Canada. It is a city with no rivals in NA. But Chi or Toronto are the next two big urban walkable cities. So I can see why people compare them to NYC.
In Toronto, the row-houses that we have in places like Cabbagetown or the Annex quickly give way to larger, single-family houses and mansions starting from Rosedale and north into Eglinton. Once you get past Davisville, the residential streets (non-high rise streets) look pretty much like your standard upper-middle class suburbia, even just a few hundred meters off major corridors like Yonge. .
In addition to being related to Toronto developing later, it's also a function of Toronto at the time being a wealthier city overall with a much smaller share of its population being proletarian labourers.
If you go back to when the bay-and-gable houses were built, that was simply the logical housing choice because more Torontonians could afford more space (interior and exterior) than Montrealers could.
Yeah. The traditional vernacular of even innermost Toronto isn't really rowhouses like you have in big cities that are older.
Most residential streets are (admittedly quite attractive) bay-and-gable homes that tend to be two storeys, and are either detached or semi-detached. Often with a patch of grass and the front (often paved over for parking these days) and a teeny-tiny backyard.
In innermost Toronto most houses are attached in rows or semi-detached. You have to go a bit further out until fully detached house predominate.
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