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Yes we'll have to agree to disagree because I dont see why Swiss Air, Singapore Airlines and Cathay Pacific dont fly to Toronto? It would seem logical for such prestigious carriers to have a presence there considering your lofty claim that YYZ and JFK are at a different level than everywhere else, but I dont see it, especially when looking at LAX which is a massive global gateway with clearly far more traffic to/from other continents.
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I know you are a smart guy Montclair, but i don't think you've read my posts in detail about this. Even if we omit YYZ Transborder traffic, it still has more international pax than SFO.
Without US traffic, YYZs advantage is reduced significantly and if we exclude snowbird traffic I wonder if YYZ isnt actually a bit below SF?
Yes we'll have to agree to disagree because I dont see why Swiss Air, Singapore Airlines and Cathay Pacific dont fly to Toronto? It would seem logical for such prestigious carriers to have a presence there considering your lofty claim that YYZ and JFK are at a different level than everywhere else, but I dont see it, especially when looking at LAX which is a massive global gateway with clearly far more traffic to/from other continents.
It is ok to be civil and agree to disagree. What I will say is, there are advantages and disadvantages to having a dominant hub carrier at an airport - like Toronto has vs an airport like LAX which is more decentralized. CPA flies to Toronto daily 365. In the summer on some days they have two dailies. Swiss and Singapore stay tuned but (Air Canada is already launching 77W's daily to ZRH) i don't see why you needed to underscore 'prestige' into the mix - is that a personal thing? I'm not seeing a major advantage with LAX over YYZ even excluding U.S traffic from an overall international connectivity p.o.v. I see an advantage in Asia and more even more so Asia Pacific. I do not see advantage over Africa and Europe - at all and I see YYZ connecting to more continents with a stronger European penetration. YYZ's Asian connectivity is nothing to snicker at either btw. LAX is decently connected to Europe. In the end though, it is not lofty to say that Toronto is the second busiest international traffic in N.A after JFK - is it?
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Originally Posted by 18Montclair
Without US traffic, YYZs advantage is reduced significantly and if we exclude snowbird traffic I wonder if YYZ isnt actually a bit below SF?
Why do you insist on excluding so many things? I feel like you are talking about a Banana and i am talking about an Orange when it comes to International connectivity.
So you want to strip away International traffic from Toronto ie. No U.S, No Canadian, U.S Carriers, No leisure travel. Personally, i will not strip away so many things to engage in fantasy - especially this desire to exclude Canadian and American airlines from international connectivity - that is nonsensical.
Besides, are you going to strip away CAD traffic from U.S airports. Are you going to strip away leisure traffic as well. Are you going to introduce a what/if scenario that there are more dominant hub Carriers in U.S airports? Finally, I already told you - sun flights if you will are not just leisure. In the case of Mexico, this is increasingly the case since Canada lifted Visa requirements for Mexicans. Toronto is now flooded with Mexicans (Brazilians too). You should check the number of them in Toronto on Grindr
Yes we'll have to agree to disagree because I dont see why Swiss Air, Singapore Airlines and Cathay Pacific dont fly to Toronto? It would seem logical for such prestigious carriers to have a presence there considering your lofty claim that YYZ and JFK are at a different level than everywhere else, but I dont see it, especially when looking at LAX which is a massive global gateway with clearly far more traffic to/from other continents.
All three of those carriers fly to Toronto, not sure what you're on about.
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Without US traffic, YYZs advantage is reduced significantly and if we exclude snowbird traffic I wonder if YYZ isnt actually a bit below SF?
Maybe we should remove all the traffic from SFO to Hong Kong as well considering that's SFO's #1 most popular international destination.
The irony is the 4th and 7th most popular international destinations out of SFO are Vancouver and Toronto respectively.
Last edited by Differential; 08-24-2019 at 08:24 PM..
As of the last census, the Toronto Census Metropolitan Area was 52 percent vis min and 48 percent white....That means Toronto is more non-white than white (not that there is anything wrong with white), but you are off with your comment.
That only breaks down white vs non white from a racial point of view. From a diversity perspective and based on language, culture and ethnicity - I think the previous posters numbers show Toronto is simply more diverse than D.C - excluding latin.
Toronto is somewhat of an outlier in Canada. It is far more diverse than the rest of the country. It acts as its own sort of microcosm in that regard. That all said, Canada is now simply more of an immigration country than the U.S, and is taking in a lot more in representative terms. Over time the overall representative gap could close, but in the case of Toronto alone, it already is more culturally/ethnically diverse than every U.S city except NYC.
The vast majority of the 3 million vis mins in T.O have only been planted here in the last 60 years - same with a large chunk of the white communities ie Portuguese, Italians, Ukrainians etc. Toronto was overwhelmingly anglo white.... in the 1950's.. Another thing to account for is that a big chunk of your vis min population - especially the established African American population in the U.S and your city/metro, have been firmly planted in the U.S for many many generations and have less of a connection to their ancestral home.
If Toronto really wants to leverage globalization, it needs to be more intentional in getting qualified immigrants, people of color, and women into the upper echelons of business and political leadership. Canada talks a lot about "multiculturalism," but its political leadership tends to look like Upper Canada College and High Tory/Monied Liberal Party elites. Toronto's Mayors have been overwhelmingly white and not reflective of the city's diversity. SF and DC both have Black women mayors and are thriving. I know Toronto is thriving as well, but it needs to grow a bench of diverse leaders to help take the city to the next level, especially given Canada's more stable outlook compared to the US.
All three of those carriers fly to Toronto, not sure what you're on about.
No, they dont. Cathay Pacific yes, the other 2 no.
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Maybe we should remove all the traffic from SFO to Hong Kong as well considering that's SFO's #1 most popular international destination.
London is SFs #1 and I choose to place higher value on transcontinental flights than YYZ-ORD, or YYZ-LGA, you are free to disagree with that but I stand by my way of looking at flights that way
EDIT: Youre right, Hong Kong surpassed London. Wow how interesting .
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The irony is the 4th and 7th most popular international destinations out of SFO are Vancouver and Toronto respectively.
So what? 40% of all international traffic at YYZ is to the US while about 11% of SFO traffic is to Canada.
YYZ has more international passenger volume than LAX and SFO but now we know that probably the majority of that is to destinations within North America and the Caribbean, LAX and SFO couldnt be any more opposite.
London is SFs #1 and I choose to place higher value on transcontinental flights than YYZ-ORD, or YYZ-LGA, you are free to disagree with that but I stand by my way of looking at flights that way
EDIT: Youre right, Hong Kong surpassed London. Wow how interesting .
So what? 40% of all international traffic at YYZ is to the US while about 11% of SFO traffic is to Canada.
YYZ has more international passenger volume than LAX and SFO but now we know that probably the majority of that is to destinations within North America and the Caribbean, LAX and SFO couldnt be any more opposite.
Pearson breaks down transborder flight (USA) and international flight passenger numbers (monthly).
I am Canadian but still trying to be objective about the conversation, I would have to say Toronto with SF second and Washington last.
Washington is a capitol city and like Ottawa, it relies on federal jobs and head offices. There can certainly be large pluses in this by having companies grow by government contracts but that doesn't make it international. Extremely important most certainly but not financially or culturally. SF is the world's high-tech powerhouse and there is no reason to think that will change but I think it's RELATIVE dominance in the sector will slowly decline.
Both also have the disadvantage of being in the US which seems to be very much inwardly looking at the moment. When Trump leaves that will change but the reality is that the US will never be viewed or accepted amongst fellow nations like it once was. The damage that has been done to US relations with all of it's allies {and hence trading partners and skilled immigrant potential} is very much long-term. I think the overall belief amongst Democrats and generally everyone who knows US relations around the world have been decimated are under the VERY false assumption that things will return to normal once Trump is kicked out but that is very much not the case. One time US allies and friends will NEVER, EVER see the US or Americans the same again.
This leaves Canada and hence our most important city in a very advantageous position to draw the best and brightest, make the country seem more welcome to new people, ideas, and businesses. Toronto is growing at a dizzying pace, the fastest growing high-tech workforce in NA by a long shot, is an international magnet for immigrants, has the most diversified economy of the 3, is a world financial centre, is home to the 8th largest stock exchange on the planet, and has an increasing influence on culture as well such as TIFF and theatre.
Lol no these are probably code share with other airlines. Neither of these airlines serve YYZ. Swiss Air serves Montreal and Singapore eliminated Canada flights years ago.
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Pearson breaks down transborder flight (USA) and international flight passenger numbers (monthly).
42% of Toronto's international passengers are going to the US. That doesnt even take into account Canadians who winter in the Carribean and Mexico/Central America.
By contrast,
75% of San Francisco's International passengers are leaving the Americas altogether.
Lol no these are probably code share with other airlines. Neither of these airlines serve YYZ. Swiss Air serves Montreal and Singapore eliminated Canada flights years ago.
This is a weak argument. Swiss air lands in Halifax and the connecting flight is AC, does that mean Halifax is more prominent than Toronto?
This has more to do with logistics than anything.
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LOL people just cant be humble on their own...
YYZ had 13.5 Million transborder passengers in 2018:
my pic
NOTICE HOW YYZs OWN STATISTICS DONT REALLY COUNT U.S. TRAFFIC AS "International"????
YYZ has about as much U.S. traffic in 1 month as SFO's Canadian traffic is for a year...
my pic
You're hung up on useless percentages.
From your own pics:
YYZ International (excludes USA): 18,013,719
SFO International (includes Canada): 14,294,922
SFO International (excludes Canada): 12,504,017
2018 traffic.
So even if you take out the USA flights from Pearson, the remaining international traffic still dwarfs SFO.
Being humble has never been your strength.
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Originally Posted by 18Montclair
So based on that we now know the following:
42% of Toronto's international passengers are going to the US. That doesnt even take into account Canadians who winter in the Carribean and Mexico/Central America.
By contrast,
75% of San Francisco's International passengers are leaving the Americas altogether.
And yet Toronto's overall international traffic excluding USA flights still dwarfs SFO's international traffic. You're counting percentages as if the pies are the same size. lol.
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